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Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

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Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#131

Post by 1123581321 »

OJFord wrote: post #109
1123581321 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're aware; they're saying that targeted temperature is a simpler control that obviates the need to try to manually tune the fan, used vents and degree of heat.

But the reasoning for choice of the first two isn't just about desired temperature. Basically I think three dial is the right UI, but the temp one should be a thermostat, not output control (as I guess it generally is based on experience) - that doesn't obviate the need for (or utility of) the other two.

I was just trying to help the disconnect between those users. I think that makes sense. I also like the utility of applying air to the different vents, especially in the winter as I live in a cold area and either defrost faster, warm my feet faster or warm my hands faster.

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#132

Post by brigandish »

bluepizza wrote: post #115
brigandish wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see you’re being downvoted but as someone who lives in Japan and had the misfortune to agree to doing a survey this week on tourism which entailed my looking at around 57 tourist websites that made me viscerally angry at how bad they were, I can say you’re right on the money. To say so is not racism or any such thing other than the ability to correctly describe a situation.

Stating the differences, especially the poor quality of the websites is normal. There’s a bunch of terrible web developers here, and they get paid to make terrible websites. The racism starts whenever a foreigner starts explaining Japanese culture, and they will usually incorporate some old fashioned Japanese nationalism. Japanese people are just people. There is nothing inherent to our culture, genetics, or soil tha…

> There is nothing inherent to our culture

The article states some reasons under Cultural Differences that are inherent (though not unique as the Update 1 note shows) to Japanese culture that would explain the proliferation of bad web design. Maybe they're wrong but they at least seem reasonable. Are we going to argue that Japanese culture generally is going to have no effect on work style and commerce on the web, while we're also to believe it's just chance that led to 2 out of 71 (I checked) of the websites I looked at being adequate?

> The racism starts whenever a foreigner starts explaining Japanese culture, and they will usually incorporate some old fashioned Japanese nationalism.

I'm not sure about the old fashioned Japanese nationalism, but have you considered the possibility that they've experienced a modern type of Japanese nationalism and it's going to be incorporated into their assessment of life in Japan?

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#133

Post by sixothree »

ekianjo wrote: post #69
blackbrokkoli wrote: post #48

I am pretty sure you could write the same article with the roles reversed. That in itself does of course not take away from the article, but I am catching some negative undertones how Japan is "behind" or "unable to change" because of their society. I guess you could even open the bottomless barell of a discussion about racism, but my point is just this: Seeing "them" as "behind" is a bad way to think about it and pr…

> Seeing "them" as "behind" is a bad way to think about it and prevents true understanding. So I guess still using Fax Machines to do business in 2020 is not "behind", it's just "different" right? Let's call a cat a cat when we see one.

I suppose you haven't been to a doctors office recently? Fax machines are a staple in every single one.

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#134

Post by kristopolous »

_nosewings_ wrote: post #82
Wohlf wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you but unfortunately these sites almost always have poor usability too.

IMO, the Web could stand to be a little bit harder to use.

I've, unrealistically wanted there to be "read only" access where someone would then apply to some organization demonstrating aptitude for write access.

I'm just joking but then again I'm really not

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#135

Post by sundarurfriend »

lemax wrote: post #46
nullifidian wrote: post #23

The better question would be why Japan in general maintains its differences/idiosyncrasies from the west? Web design is not the only thing that differs.

Until recently Japan had very few foreign nationals, on the order of 1% even in 2005 [1]. Compare that to 10-12% in the US. That has recently been changing as Japan tries to bring in more foreigners to address its shrinking workforce [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Japan#Foreign_... [2] https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/23/japan-immigration-polic...

Having not seen the numbers, I'd guess that US is the outlier there, not Japan.

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#136

Post by cyphar »

appleiigs wrote: post #13

The crammed design is also seen in their electronics and other household items. Things that seemingly that have 1 function such as rice cookers and toilets are jam packed with buttons, lights and beeping. I also avoided Toyotas because of the crammed dashboard/consoles and all the beeping. Unlock door, closing hatch door, starting the car is just beep, beep, beep. Instead of toggles like BMW, they would have an indiv…

I take it you've never used a Japanese rice cooker? They have far more than one function -- aside from making steamed rice, you can make rice porridge, congee, steam other foods, and some can even be used to bake cakes. Not to mention you can time-delay the cooking to specify when you want the rice to be ready (which means it also has a clock). These are just the features my middle-of-the-road rice cooker can do -- more expensive models have even more features.

So the buttons are serving a purpose, the question is whether it's better to have more buttons or more touch-screens or other "less crammed" designs. Aesthetic concerns aside (personally I've gradually grown more fond of the "crammed" designs as having their own aesthetic), buttons are also practically better because they always do exactly one thing -- meaning it's easier to learn and use for most people (including older and vision-impaired users). If the cost of having less buttons is that users have to learn how to navigate a set of menus for each appliance they own (many of which will have rubbish UIs) then I'll take the extra buttons. I also like that my rice cooker beeps when it's done -- it reminds me to go fluff the rice (or acts as a signal that it's time to have dinner).

Cars are possibly the best argument for physical-button-based designs -- because you usually operate them without looking at them! Touch-screens or any other complicated but "less cluttered" design just means that you can't use them in that setting. I get anxiety looking at the Tesla dashboard -- maybe the reason they're developing self-driving cars is so that you can operate the dashboard without crashing?

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#137

Post by namuol »

euske wrote: post #70
namuol wrote: post #27

(Disclaimer: IANAL - I am not a linguist) The Japanese language itself has very low "information density" - it takes many more syllables to convey the same thing in Japanese than it does in most languages. This is the result of the language having much tighter phonotactic constraints; literally there are fewer "legal" phonemes (and combinations of them) in Japanese than in most other languages. [1] This isn't a criti…

As a Japanese native who's fluent in English, I disagree with this. I regularly translate English (mostly technical) texts to Japanese, and the translation I get is roughly the same size as the original. Its density is certainly not "very low". The reason that you might think that Japanese is more "bloated" is probably because the form of the language you hear most - in TV news and speeches - are in the "polite" form…

Thanks for calling me out, there. I did some digging and I _think_ this is where I first came across the idea of "information density" as a function of info/syllables: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235971274_A_cross-L...

The methods this paper employed may certainly be biased in a way that makes Japanese appear less information-dense than other languages.

As for the _written_ language's density, that's entirely different! You say that as written, translations come out to be about the same in Japanese and English, I assume this corresponds to roughly the same number of characters as well? If so, if we can believe the authors of the paper above that Japanese has less information-per-syllable, then perhaps Japanese writing's syllabic/ideographic writing system accounts for this handily such that the information density of _written_ Japanese is about the same as written English.

For what it's worth, I think you were agreeing with me actually:

> Take a look at the front page of a Japanese newspaper and show it to an English speaker, they will think it's "crowded", but I bet if you translated it to English you'd see something that resembles a typical English paper.

What I meant here was that in terms of _written_ information density there are clearly significant gains made thanks to the writing system.

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#138

Post by soraminazuki »

busterarm wrote: post #6

tl;dr: i-Mode. Any answer to this question that doesn't include a mention of this is grossly misinformed to the point of being wrong.

The article actually does mention it:

> Japan was using their version of the mobile web on advanced flip phones long before the iPhone came along and in even larger numbers than had personal computers.

I think the bigger problem is that this is a seven year old article and the web landscape in Japan has changed significantly since then.

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#139

Post by innocenat »

namuol wrote: post #137
euske wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Japanese native who's fluent in English, I disagree with this. I regularly translate English (mostly technical) texts to Japanese, and the translation I get is roughly the same size as the original. Its density is certainly not "very low". The reason that you might think that Japanese is more "bloated" is probably because the form of the language you hear most - in TV news and speeches - are in the "polite" form…

Thanks for calling me out, there. I did some digging and I _think_ this is where I first came across the idea of "information density" as a function of info/syllables: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235971274_A_cross-L... The methods this paper employed may certainly be biased in a way that makes Japanese appear less information-dense than other languages. As for the _written_ language's density, that's ent…

> I assume this corresponds to roughly the same number of characters as well?

Japanese usually has less characters, but Japanese character are bigger than average latin character.

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#140

Post by eloisius »

timoth3y wrote: post #100

I started my first tech startup in Japan in 1998 and have built several since them. For the last 20 years there has been a steady stream of articles on how Japanese web design is "broken", or "behind", or "cluttered". There is also a steady steam of UI experts arriving from the US telling Japanese companies they need to modernize their look and feel. The thing is, e-commerce sites like Rakuten are already heavily A/B…

I don’t understand the aversion to information density that designers have. In my experience, old school server-rendered sites tended to be jam packed with more information and richer tooling than most of the SPA-type sites you interact with these days.

They might be “ugly” from some bauhaus art school designer’s standard but I’d way rather use an old school but feature rich interface like eBay than the sleek-looking but totally UX deprived site like FB marketplace. I recently liquidated a bunch of my belongings to move, and I can’t deny that it’s probably the best tool to do something like that because of the eye balls, but god damn. The mobile first design, gobs of white pace, the annoying “blurred copy of your picture behind your picture” effect that local news sites seem to love, completely re-created React component replacements for every standard UI element like a select drop down. It was usually easier to just use my phone than their website.

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