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Moving from Macbook to Linux

monadical.com

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Re: Moving from Macbook to Linux

#341
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I'm comfortable accepting that I'm an edge case and have the worst luck with linux installations ever, but I still think there's so many things that regularly go wrong (even for people that aren't me), that it's definitely not in contention for regular people's daily drivers.

Really? Like what? I mean linux is the backbone of the internet. I think of it as extremely predictable and rock-solid. Describing it as an os where "so many things that regularly go wrong" seems like a totally foreign concept to me.

The last try, I installed Ubuntu on my desktop and checked the 'Auto Login on Start' box on setup, which broke the UI and required a CLI fix. It wasn't hard (because I'm a dev and it was easy to troubleshoot/fix), but it was more than 0 effort and a person that wasn't a dev might not be able to do it.

Prior to that, I had an issue with bluetooth drivers that, IIRC, required finding a custom driver online or some C source file? I don't really remember the specifics, but it was another "I am a dev and this isn't really difficult but is more than 0 effort and my mom couldn't do it."

Prior to that, I installed Ubuntu on my laptop for college and the display drivers were an absolute mess. The screen brightness flickered from 10% to 80% over and over, regardless of what I was pressing or they were set at. I didn't find a fix and ultimately reformatted and went back to windows.

> I mean linux is the backbone of the internet.

Linux containers are great, I use them all the time. Linux as a desktop environment where I use an array of UI applications to develop software, make and observe video files, make games, etc, I have never once had a good experience with. The most recent try, when I encountered the Auto Login issue, I was also totally unable to get Unity to compile/run my company's game. It was yet another thing that I probably could have fixed, but the value-add vs. the effort of constantly having to manually fix each individual piece of software I intended to use, just didn't seem worth it to me. And, what's probably worse (to me), is the general response I found online was "Those issues aren't that big of a deal", which totally ignores my entire point. Death by a thousand paper cuts is a problem, even if each individual paper cut isn't that bad.

Again, I am happy to be told that my experience isn't indicative of the landscape of the env, and that I myself just have terrible luck, but if we're asking what _I_ think, that is my experience which makes me think it's not yet ready for legitimate non-developer use.

Re: Moving from Macbook to Linux

#342
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just any thinkpad! Stick to the X, T & to some extent P series. Avoid nvidia graphics if you can. Arch Linux (and to some extent OpenBSD) probably has the best support/documentation/fixes for any ACPI/APM management issues you have. I have a top-end 2017 MBP and I just recently bought a brand new 7th Gen X1 Carbon for very cheaply (like $800) and it _screams_ in comparison to the Mac.

So X1 Carbon works well with Linux?

avoid the 7th gen though.

Re: Moving from Macbook to Linux

#343
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That future looks extremely scary. What can we do, now, as developers ? Stop buying, using, and supporting the Apple ecosystem. Vote with your money. The new chips are faster. So what? The laptop you have today works fine, you don't need the latest and greatest hardware.

i code iOS (native) app for a living. I'm already stuck developing for the app store, using xcode to sign and deploy, using a programming language (that i love) swift that only really works on mac OS. My personal situation isn't going to change anytime soon unfortunately. I was about to dump my iphone next time i had to pick one (and keep my current one for testing), however my laptop is my work computer. I think "st…

> with a crap OS

So anything that is not macOS is crap now?

Re: Moving from Macbook to Linux

#344
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20 years ago they all bought Windows machines. Apple didn't change that by suddenly being excellent and having great marketing. Developers changed that by realising that Macs were good dev machines and writing software that ran on Macs. Non-tech people ask their tech-savvy friends for advice on what tech to buy. For years that was "buy Apple; it costs more but they're more reliable, the support is great, and they're…

> Apple didn't change that by suddenly being excellent and having great marketing. That is actually pretty much precisely the reason.

My take on it (and I lived through this) is that pre-web everyone ran on Windows. If you were writing software, it needed to run on Windows, so you had to code on a Windows machine.

Then the web changed things, and a huge number of devs moved from writing Windows desktop applications to writing web applications for the dotcom boom (I was one). This took about a decade, from around '97ish. It also freed people to use different dev machines because most of the servers were LAMP (or variants thereof), and Macs could run the AMP bit fine. Web designers who had started off in Apple-land being designers on Adobe migrated into being web developers, and that helped spread Macs into the web dev community.

Yes, Macs did get better during this same period, and there was a lot of great innovation. But if nothing else had changed then that wouldn't have mattered - if you had to write Windows applications then you couldn't do that on a Mac, no matter how sexy it was.

I find the parallel with today's situation (and this discussion) fascinating.

Re: Moving from Macbook to Linux

#345
I've had an amazing experience with any of the polished high-end distros. I've tried Solus, Mint (with Cinnamon), Ubuntu, Manjaro and now currently on Zorin. All of them just rocked my Inspiron 2 in 1 touchscreen laptop. What's great is the support for touchscreen and touch-keyboard is inbuilt! And everything just works!

Re: Moving from Macbook to Linux

#346

This is going to sound dumb or elitist but I am so much happier working since I ditched portable computing. I have a desk at home in an office. I have the same setup at work. I don’t carry my dev environment with me. When I need to work I go to the ’do work stuff’ place. Nice keyboard. Nice mouse. And a nice OS that, yes, took a whole day to configure but over which I have total control. (Full-screen focus-mode no-or…

Why either/or.. with laptops you can have both the desktop experience and the portable experience. I have a laptop that I primarily use as a desktop. I like it that way best, but I like the option to take it with me. For when I travel or just times I want to sit out in the family room.

If your work is CPU or memory-hungry, I don't think there's a single laptop out there than can touch the performance of a Zen 3 desktop with 64 GB+ of memory.

I spend 99% of my working hours at my desk so it's a no-brainer for me to use a desktop. For the rare times I need to work somewhere else I just git push on the desktop, git pull on the laptop, and keep working.

Re: Moving from Macbook to Linux

#347

This is going to sound dumb or elitist but I am so much happier working since I ditched portable computing. I have a desk at home in an office. I have the same setup at work. I don’t carry my dev environment with me. When I need to work I go to the ’do work stuff’ place. Nice keyboard. Nice mouse. And a nice OS that, yes, took a whole day to configure but over which I have total control. (Full-screen focus-mode no-or…

I'm the opposite. I get tired of sitting at my desk for 8 hours a day. I really like mixing it up during the day.

I also tend to do different types of work in different places.

* Coding - Desk with monitors * Meetings - Table looking out of the house * Writing - chilling out on a couch

Re: Moving from Macbook to Linux

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's mouse/trackpad/touch drivers are out of this world. Anecdotally as someone who collects laptops - you can't beat them. There's polish there that doesn't exist on any other solution on the market!

Agreed. The touchpas on Macbooks are extremely well built and functional--and they have been for years and years.

+1 Yes, there is no comparison, touchpads are way better on Mac, it's too bad that they have become such poor development machines (docker on mac is a garbage barge)

Re: Moving from Macbook to Linux

#349
post #314
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think desk setups are underrated. I got (a relatively cheap) one this March and the difference is touchable. I went the gamers way: Gamer keyboard, Gamer Mouse + pad, 3 screens, AMD for processor, nvme and also ArchLinux. Needless to say, I can no longer work on macOS or an Apple device. The speeds you get with a bare-bone install and a window manager are unparalleled.

I went down the same route and wouldn’t change a thing. The difference really is striking. Just curious, as I’m looking to upgrade the processor that I bought - are AMD processors widely known as being better than Intel? Not trying to start an argument about which is better, I’m just genuinely curious as I have no idea as I’m not a gamer and have always gone for Intel processors.

>>Just curious, as I’m looking to upgrade the processor that I bought - are AMD processors widely known as being better than Intel?

Basically AMD did a full redesign of their processors when they introduced their Ryzen CPU line. That and Intel's problems in manufacturing has resulted in AMD chips beating Intel on price, performance, and temperature.

AMD's high end desktop chips literally perform better than Intel's top commercial Xenon.

Re: Moving from Macbook to Linux

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learn to use keyboard shortcuts instead. It's faster than using the trackpad and makes it much less important.

Why do you not want people to use linux?

Linux people don't want you to "not use Linux", they want you to see that wearing a burlap sack is good for your soul, then you'll embrace it wholeheartedly on their terms. The computing world is as tribal as the USA's Red/Blue[1] arrangement, but the origins of the tribes and the polarisation of opinions are as if perfectly tuned to avoid Linux on the Desktop.

The people who like Linux for its customizability and modularity see user friendliness as removing options, and prefer the side of more difficult but more configurable. Or wouldn't object to friendliness if there was zero cost, but have no personal need for it and so no interest in supporting it or developing it, or don't believe that's possible. Some crossover here with a certain kind of neuro-atypical who sees a BNF grammar dump as a user friendly help message, and believes Linux already is user friendly.

Two of the more vocal sub-tribes are the complexity fetishists and the 37337 hax0r / V for Vendetta user. One takes their sense of self and identity from being visibly clever and able to use Linux and sees people who cannot as inferior morons, the other takes theirs from the counter-culture and sees people who don't use it as pathetic sheep normies. Both vehemently object to the "dumbing down" or "commercialisation" aspects and the accompanying loss of self identity. If anyone can use it, using it isn't a sign of being clever or special; normalising it so your mom could use it would be like making 4chan friendly so your mom could use it, or McDonalds opening a Burning Man stall, or getting Linus Torvalds to tone down his communication style, totally embarassing and unthinkable. Taking away what both groups like about it. Overlaps a lot with the "if it was easier to use, I wouldn't get paid as much to use it, and I'd have to work with morons because only morons like easy to use things" sysadmin sub-tribe.

The anti-Microsoft user is another vocal subtype, whose sole reason for decision making is the polar opposite of whatever Microsoft would do. Ease of use is not bad per-se, it's bad because Microsoft claims to value it. NO progress vectors that lead towards Microsoft are allowed, except (curiously) slavishly making cargo-cult copies of surface level Windows dressing hoping to entice the mysterious "users" to come. When they are freed from Microsoft (or Apple), surely they will see the light, accept mud huts and rejoice.

The Stylites[2] are principled idealists, if Linus Torvalds can have no interest in GUI distributions, or Richard Stallman can use a Holy text-only system for years, that's what we should aspire to. Ease of use is a sinful temptation towards vice. Say three Hail Mary's, your mantra is "but POSIX" and "The UNIX way". Minimailists join here, change your mantra to "Ed is the standard editor".

The least controversial is the pragmatic open source developer, in Mac world they can charge money for small utilities and do and make them nice to use, in Windows world some charge and some are free, in Linux world they can't charge and ease of use and documentation take more effort and time, and nobody is paying for that, so ease is often left as an afterthought.

And people who value free-as-in-beer who will put up with anything if it saves a buck, they're already running Linux on hardware they got from eBay, or Windows because it came with their computer, and have no other requirements. Nice would be nice, as long as the 3D effects runs fast on an S3 Virge DX and don't cost money. Also covers people who can't afford alternatives who also live by "Nice would be nice, as long as the 3D effects runs fast on an S3 Virge DX and don't cost money" but for different reasons. Also covers the majority business use - I'm not paying for (a webserver, a database, a fileserver, an IDE, a compiler, etc (but I will pay Oracle licensing)).

Less principled idealists. People who object to proprietary corporate things - use of binary blob drivers, companies like Adobe getting involved in offering proprietary software, compromises with media companies about codecs, closed file formats, things that would make Linux on Desktop more palatable but at too high cost.

Somewhere in there is a single user who paid for SUSE.

On the other tribe sides, people who like simplicity or the appearance of it, people who can and will pay, people who don't mind the norm, people who don't need to show off complexity, people who don't object to proprietariness, the desktop user market, who value convenience and comfort, who are pragmatic, or want to get things done without caring about how, are using macOS, Windows and Chromebooks.

Linux on the Desktop depends on Linux becoming something else, taking on characteristics which go against why these tribes gathered in their respective groups in the first place. From the Linux polarised side, the desire isn't for "Linux on the Desktop" but for popularity and approval and good hardware drivers. Much, much better if you change, you can have Linux on the desktop right now, simply deal with video codecs, audio problems, worse trackpad, use a Thinkpad, use keyboard shortcuts, change the software you use, change your values, change your beliefs and your priorities and you will see the Linux Desktop you seek is right here waiting for you, today, you can have it, and better, the suffering is good for you! It doesn't feel like suffering at all, it feels righteous, principled, superior! Windows/macOS users wouldn't object to Linux on the desktop if it was like Windows/macOS, but then again if it was the same, why bother switching, where's the advantage? Neither side wants Linux to change to become a desktop os - one side loses everything, the other side gains nothing. One side wants people to change en-masse, the other side is disinterested in the whole thing.

It needs millions of Windows and macOS users to be forced onto Linux against their will, then strive to use their money and effort to make it into the things they've lost, at which point there will be a distro Linux tribes dislike. Or, for Microsoft to make Winux under the business "I'm not paying for that" motivation, which will also result in a distro Linux tribes dislike.

[1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/04/27/book-review-albions-se...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stylite

See also: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anythin... and that Greg Egan story I can't find where people wake up one day with a kind of telepathy where they start to take on the beliefs of the people physically close by, and form local tribes around strong attractor ideas, and the main character is a wanderer trying not to be caught up in one, and it took me years to realise it's not Sci-Fi and is observing how people behave normally without telepathy.

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