Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

acoup.blog

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 325 posts

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#261

Post by throwaway894345 »

mcphage wrote: post #217
gwd wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's try your formulation in a different context and see if it works. Imagine someone saying this in the '50s: > There's a lot of media that uses caricatures to vilify [Blacks], but there is relatively little uproar from [Blacks] about it. They don't seem to be very sensitive apart from a small handful... I assure you, Christians are aware of how poorly they're portrayed by the media, and aren't happy about it. It s…

> I assure you, Christians are aware of how poorly they're portrayed by the media, and aren't happy about it. It seems to me that this is one of many factors that led many Christians to support Trump. "I don't like how I'm portrayed, so I'll validate their criticisms through my actions" doesn't seem the best solution. If they don't like their portrayal, it seems they would be better off to make the portrayal better i…

People lash out at their bullies for catharsis, not for prudence. In any case, Christians are very charitable people by any metric, and that didn't spare them any bullying or earn them any favor, so why be surprised when some people behave according to the incentive structure we put around them? It's also worth noting that Christians as a collective didn't vote for Trump, rather they were pretty evenly split.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#262

Post by leetcrew »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #242
trollybaz wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article notes that if the same portrayal was done to any other religion besides Christianity, then there would probably be an uproar. In today's society, with emphases on unconscious bias, race theory and egalitarianism, we are generally not okay with this kind of tone.

> The article notes that if the same portrayal was done to any other religion besides Christianity, then there would probably be an uproar. You mean like every single Call Of Duty game? Because it is in fact regularly being done.

keep in mind roughly half of the call of duty games are set in WWII (or space, lol) where this religious subtext doesn't really exist.

the franchise does have you spend a lot of time killing people in the middle east, but the games don't explore religious ideology. the context clues pretty clearly point to your adversaries being jihadists and/or soldiers for a fundamentalist regime, but I don't recall the games ever explicitly saying so. in COD, terrorists blow things up simply because they are terrorists, not because they have any sort of coherent goal.

this is not to say that depictions in COD are not damaging in their own way, but they don't have anything quite so blatant as what is described in TFA.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#263

Post by trey-jones »

frazbin wrote: post #230

This is a pretty high effort article, let's take a deep breath. I enjoyed it because it uses Assassin's Creed as a lense to teach us a bit about history. No culture war related baggage is required for admission into this article IMO; the narrative compromises necessary to make a playable game out of a 9th century setting are kind of hilarious, and this article helped me process the cognitive dissonance that comes fro…

My biggest takeaway: this question of how to be truthful about history and simultaneously sensitive to people who are traumatized by the memory, or have a unique or minority perspective - it is neither and easy question to answer, nor an easy problem to solve. Parties who would debate the question would do well to respect the problem and others who would offer solutions.

I lean more towards honesty and accuracy, and if you can't handle the truth then go read something else, but my perspective is probably closer to one of decadence, rather than persecution. Also, I haven't played the game but I thought the article was a good read regardless.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#264

Post by mcphage »

krapp wrote: post #231
mcphage wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm truly baffled by how ahistoric and whitewashing it is. What for? Because most players don't want to play as someone who captures people for slavery, or invades a monastery by slaughtering all of the monks inside.

>Because most players don't want to play as someone who captures people for slavery, or invades a monastery by slaughtering all of the monks inside. The slavery I can understand, but the violence is kind of what makes Vikings a popular character archetype. I can't imagine wanting to play a Viking protagonist in a "realistic" setting without the pillaging and bloodshed. That's kind of the draw.

> I can't imagine wanting to play a Viking protagonist in a "realistic" setting without the pillaging and bloodshed.

I get your point, and you're probably right, but at least one person (namely, myself) has no problem with violent fights in a videogame, but would not enjoy playing a game that required me to slaughter unarmed civilians. I still want to think of myself as a hero, not... that. All those Goombas had it coming to them, is what I'm saying.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#265

Post by Bayart »

torginus wrote: post #37

Vikings invade England, pillage and massacre the English, yet they are still seen as the good guys. I wonder if the people who made this game have some historical resentment towards the English.

Viking fetishism is very much an artifact of English-speaking pop culture. I don't think people have as much an agenda about England as they have about what medieval England might represent in an English-speaking context : traditional authority structures (monarchy and Christianity) and a military culture driven by male aggression.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#266

Post by mcphage »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #261
mcphage wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I assure you, Christians are aware of how poorly they're portrayed by the media, and aren't happy about it. It seems to me that this is one of many factors that led many Christians to support Trump. "I don't like how I'm portrayed, so I'll validate their criticisms through my actions" doesn't seem the best solution. If they don't like their portrayal, it seems they would be better off to make the portrayal better i…

People lash out at their bullies for catharsis, not for prudence. In any case, Christians are very charitable people by any metric, and that didn't spare them any bullying or earn them any favor, so why be surprised when some people behave according to the incentive structure we put around them? It's also worth noting that Christians as a collective didn't vote for Trump, rather they were pretty evenly split.

> so why be surprised when some people behave according to the incentive structure we put around them?

I guess a basic level of self-respect? It's one thing to be criticized, but one could say "that's not who I am". And it's not like Jesus didn't warn them they'd be prosecuted for him; there are many, many verses about this very thing. But once they start performing destructive behaviors themselves, suddenly: that is who they are.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#267

Post by gambiting »

Spivak wrote: post #255
gambiting wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately in 2020 it looks like even acknowladging the existance of things like slavery is somehow equated with approval of those things. There was a case where someone got upset(on twitter, of course) that there is a character in Valhalla who is described as "disfigured" - apparently that's ableism. So Ubisoft apologized, don't know if that description got changed or not in the end, but even if such small things…

Calling someone with a disability disfigured is mean. Just because in the past you wouldn't get called out for it doesn't make not mean. Then you have to realize that in having your character call someone disfigured in your fictional work is also mean without treading extremely carefully. You have to use your voice as the narrator to make it clear that this wasn't an okay thing to do. It's the same as DnD rules where…

I literally don't understand, maybe it's because English is not my first language, but I don't think that's it. The person in question was literally described as "disfigured in a house fire" - she's not disabled. She is disfigured. How else would you call it? "Damaged" in a fire? That sounds like talking about a washing machine not a human.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#268

Post by BlueTemplar »

Fnoord wrote: post #130
xalava wrote: post #38

The most relevant point of this article is not about historical accuracy, but on the contradiction of claiming cultural sensitivity by including gender and origin diversity while totally missing the point on deeper issues. I've grown up in a period when pop culture didn't care much about cultural sensitivity. With proper education anyone can compensate and treat them as pure simplistic fiction, but I do think that th…

> I've grown up in a period when pop culture didn't care much about cultural sensitivity. I wonder when that was, cause pop culture has always cared about that in one way or another. I believe you are projecting. > The most relevant point of this article is not about historical accuracy, but on the contradiction of claiming cultural sensitivity by including gender and origin diversity while totally missing the point…

> As a side note, what I find funny, is that in a certain music genre, Scandinavian culture is idolized as well: metal music. Certain metal bands, such as for example Amon Amarth, exercise this practice.

Oh yess : Norwegian Reggaeton : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0YXfeNxJJ0

> Coincidentally, the music is also going against the Christian religious dominance. I believe the game is made with such 'counter-culture' in mind; as the deeply religious Christians would not opt to play a Scandinavian religious person. I admit, pure speculation from my side.

So, Ubisoft should have maybe presented Christianism in this way ? : Valhalleluja : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9WWz95ripA

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#269

Post by zentiggr »

Dirlewanger wrote: post #247
ethbr0 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? Presumably an individual from a specific background is more likely to be able to evaluate slights against that background, vs a random individual. Individual experiences vary, but it's a helluva better start than... you know... not .

Because it's complete nonsense. With this logic, I can make a game about the Belgians colonized the Congo, leave out all that business about slaves on plantations, maiming said slaves on plantations for not meeting their quotas etc., portray the Belgians as magnanimous bringers of culture, and then say "oh, well, we had British people involved in the making of the game so it's OK"

I think the closer parallel to the game opening text would be if Congolese residents were involved?

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#270

Post by Bayart »

The whole viking craze that's been undergoing for the last ten years or so has been a vehicle for the most fantastical right-wing and left-wing rubbish.

Everybody seems to have their own personal viking. From the strong, pride of the white race, Christian-killing raider to the inclusive feminist bossgirl shield-maiden. The only thing tied everything together being the subjects' immunity to the corrupting influence of Western Modernity, whatever that influence means to you.

In the end, the best recent work of fiction I've seen in this setting happens to be... Japanese. Vinland Saga manages to be faithful in the things that affect historical awareness (the details of everyday life, the structure of society, the perception of the world) and still be very romantic in its character-building.

Post reply on HN