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Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

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Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#251

Post by tomp »

julianmarq wrote: post #170
throwaway894345 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea was that the team had Christians and they were okay with the depiction (or perhaps didn’t feel safe objecting), not that the decision was expressly made by non-Christians.

Again, that doesn't justify it, in fact, if your interpretation is correct, it no longer even explains it. The implication still remains that "hey, we're insulting your religion, but there are people of multiple backgrounds here so it should be okay"... which really doesn't follow at all. And I didn't say that the decision was expressly made by non-christians.

No, the implication is, "we (some of us) are insulting our religion, and we're OK with it".

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#252

Post by Smaug123 »

chmod775 wrote: post #203
bluGill wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the anti-christian tone of the game I think they were completely missing Christians. (I haven't played the game, so I'm taking the article's word on how it portrays Christians as fact, which might or might not be true) You cannot claim diversity if you are missing a faction - even if the faction is one you consider against your beliefs.

Well, for that you'd first have to find a Christian. Christianity is a unique religion in that there's a lot of people who claim to be Christians, but who hardly practice their religion or follow what is prescribed.

There's similarly a Jewish culture that one can identify with without practicing Judaism.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#253

Post by throwaway0a5e »

belval wrote: post #195
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What he means is that you can't expect a mostly French Canadian talent pool to create a work of fiction that isn't at least slightly biased against the English. Everyone has their biases.

This is just untrue. Most French Canadian don't have anything against the English and most certainly did not use a video game to express their "anger" of events that happened more than 300 years ago. 9th century England had very little in common with the British empire of the 18th century that crushed the French in America. If you want to argue that they have biases against the English because they are "French" Canad…

Most Americans don't have anything against the Russians yet they seem to be the default bad guys in a lot of our fictional entertainment.

And you need to do some reading up on Canadian history. French Canada doesn't like the rest of Canada and vise versa. But the animosity extends in part to the European counterparts.

You seem to think I think the Ubisoft employees are seething with hatred for the English. I don't. I'm just saying that given their cultural baggage (as a group) this is likely to a blind spot where they're less likely to notice.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#254

Post by Jiro »

My take, which is less charitable in some ways and more in others, is this: Anti-colonialism is aimed at the West and especially at countries associated with the current West. The most anger is felt towards US colonialism. Failing that, British colonialism, and anything involving Western cultural institutions such as Christianity. Colonialism that opposes those is not so hated.

If you interpret the current zeitgeist as "colonialism is wrong", therefore, you'll be constantly surprised when less-Western colonialism is given a pass. If you interpret it as "the West is evil", and notice that the British are the ones being colonized in this game and that Western religions are being robbed, you will be surprised much less.

It's true that Norse are also associated with the Nazis, but I think that's a coincidence. The Norse are being whitewashed because they're sticking it to the Man.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#255

Post by Spivak »

gambiting wrote: post #49
Ialdaboth wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's Ubisoft's fault, really - in 2020, you just can't produce a game where migrating people are presented as the bad guys who kill, rape and loot the locals indiscriminately. I'm more frustrated by the lack of diverse body types... there is no way malnutrition, lack of modern-day medicine and violence can produce as many healthy bodies as what we see in Ubisoft titles.

Unfortunately in 2020 it looks like even acknowladging the existance of things like slavery is somehow equated with approval of those things. There was a case where someone got upset(on twitter, of course) that there is a character in Valhalla who is described as "disfigured" - apparently that's ableism. So Ubisoft apologized, don't know if that description got changed or not in the end, but even if such small things…

Calling someone with a disability disfigured is mean. Just because in the past you wouldn't get called out for it doesn't make not mean.

Then you have to realize that in having your character call someone disfigured in your fictional work is also mean without treading extremely carefully. You have to use your voice as the narrator to make it clear that this wasn't an okay thing to do. It's the same as DnD rules where "it's what my character would do" isn't an excuse for being cruel and making people feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. Everyone has a story of that one guy who makes women uncomfortable by having their character rape someone -- sometimes someone in the party -- and get mad when the DM says no and kicks them out.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#256

Post by xeromal »

Smaug123 wrote: post #252
chmod775 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for that you'd first have to find a Christian. Christianity is a unique religion in that there's a lot of people who claim to be Christians, but who hardly practice their religion or follow what is prescribed.

There's similarly a Jewish culture that one can identify with without practicing Judaism.

Yeah! Jew-ish, haha. It's not unique to Christianity at all. I love using the term I learned growing up. We're a bunch of back-row baptists.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#257

Post by robteix »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #253
belval wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just untrue. Most French Canadian don't have anything against the English and most certainly did not use a video game to express their "anger" of events that happened more than 300 years ago. 9th century England had very little in common with the British empire of the 18th century that crushed the French in America. If you want to argue that they have biases against the English because they are "French" Canad…

Most Americans don't have anything against the Russians yet they seem to be the default bad guys in a lot of our fictional entertainment. And you need to do some reading up on Canadian history. French Canada doesn't like the rest of Canada and vise versa. But the animosity extends in part to the European counterparts. You seem to think I think the Ubisoft employees are seething with hatred for the English. I don't. I…

> French Canada doesn't like the rest of Canada and vise versa.

Please stop these generalizations that are borderline racist. I personally have nothing against the English, for example. If you hate us so much, that's on you.

Go watch, say, The Last Kingdom on Netflix. It wasn't made by Ubisoft or French Canadians. And yet the depiction of English vs Danes is pretty much the same: the cowardly christians with their silly religion. That's the POV of one character. It is flawed as well. But it has nothing to do with French Canadians, come on.

> I'm just saying that given their cultural baggage (as a group) this is likely to a blind spot where they're less likely to notice.

I'm sorry but you seem to be showing your own "cultural baggage" here and projecting it onto others.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#258

Post by throwaway894345 »

mike_d wrote: post #235
gwd wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's try your formulation in a different context and see if it works. Imagine someone saying this in the '50s: > There's a lot of media that uses caricatures to vilify [Blacks], but there is relatively little uproar from [Blacks] about it. They don't seem to be very sensitive apart from a small handful... I assure you, Christians are aware of how poorly they're portrayed by the media, and aren't happy about it. It s…

> Christians are aware of how poorly they're portrayed by the media, and aren't happy about it. It seems to me that this is one of many factors that led many Christians to support Trump. Christians are facing the same problem Muslims had to face post 9/11. Some of the people in your religion are so absolutely terrible you become hated as a whole for it. Is that fair or right? Of course not. But like any other communi…

I don't know what good can come from comparing Christian "bad apples" (presumably the 'judgmental hypocrite' caricature) to brutal mass murderers. Similarly, this reads like you're suggesting Christians are uniquely bad at shunning/expelling their "bad apples" or perhaps that they are unique in that they are actively voting them into some office, and perhaps even suggesting that this discrepancy justifies their mistreatment:

> But like any other community with rotten apples, you need to work on shunning and expelling these people... not voting for them.

I'm sure you didn't mean any of those things, but it might be good to clarify.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#260

Post by snouger »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #240
woko wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try replacing "christian" in your statement with "jew" or "muslism", and read it out loud. Being "anti-christian" is an issue, because it is always an issue when a society is against a group of people. One has the right to make fun and criticize religions, but not a large group of people, especially solely based on their traits, be it religion/faith, sexuality, etc.

It's funny you say that because most modern FPS games are about American Christians 'taking care' of large groups of people in foreign lands, including Muslims in the Middle East, Chinese, North Koreans etc. This is somehow fine as these are our official 'state enemies'. It is funny how the problem is when it is turned around.

I think this is a dated comment, actually. Scifi is increasingly popular, with multiple CoDs using it, the new Prey, Titanfall/Apex, the upcoming (unless it’s delayed again) Cyberpunk, etc.

CoD and BF both went back to WWI/WWII for some releases as well.

And whatever Fortnite and Overwatch’s settings are. Kinda-cartoon kinda sci-fi?

I don’t think there as many generic modern shooters these days.

Doom is kinda sci-fi and kinda killing actual demons from hell ¯\(ツ)/¯

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