Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

acoup.blog

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 325 posts

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#211

Post by bhaak »

bradlys wrote: post #191
bhaak wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think many 10 year olds play AC? I would have thought their target group is much older. I'm also not quite sure what you're insinuating by bringing up kids and computer game violence?

Target group might be older but there is definitely a large group of children playing these games. Personally, I don’t care. Violent video games argument is pretty old. The historical part being so inaccurate is probably more damaging.

I'm not sure about if the historical part being incorrect is really damaging.

Personally, games like Pirates, Civilization and Colonization sparked an interest in history in me that continues until this day. And especially Colonization is ridiculously white-washed even though it tried a little bit to show some of the problematic historical situations.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#212

Post by lambdadmitry »

Here is what the game's creative director has to say:

“The history of the invasion itself in this time period is, of course, a critical part of the journey,” Ismail said. “What did it mean for the Vikings of the Norse to land in England and to cohabitate?” Ismail enunciated that last word carefully. He said the historians that his team worked with suggested that the “Viking approach to this invasion was cohabitation.” He continued: “Yes, there was war and it was bloody, and it was very brutal. But they adapted themselves to the people they came to. And this is an aspect of it that we do look at. Some historians will even say that this is maybe why the Vikings sort of lost their way of life and culture over time—that they adapted themselves rather than forcing others. And so that aspect is something we do explore to a certain degree in the game.”

Source: https://kotaku.com/the-many-things-we-ve-learned-about-assas...

No mention of slavery, and even brutal colonisation is dismissed with "but", instead talking about "cohabitation". I'm truly baffled by how ahistoric and whitewashing it is. What for?

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#213

Post by flippinburgers »

The author exposes his biases by indicating that historically questionable accuracy in terms of racial diversity is perfectly OK but that glossing over the atrocities is NOT OK because of some phantom fear that modern day nazis will interpret it as a celebration of ... whiteness I guess. The entire thing comes across as white is bad.

Further evidence of how academically overboard he is is illustrated by the fact that he links to a video about colonialism in minecraft. I am reminded of the insufferable people I have had the displeasure of knowing in life who act like they are on the cusp of something profound when in fact they seem to be just trying to get laid. Equating actions in a video game with actual colonization is borderline perverse if you ask me.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#214

Post by teachrdan »

gwd wrote: post #201
throwaway894345 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In light of the parent comment, we should presume that the team had Christian representation and those Christians were fine with it, not that there were no Christians. There’s a lot of media that uses caricatures to vilify Christians (“Easy A” comes to mind), but there is relatively little uproar from Christians about it. They don’t seem to be very sensitive apart from a small handful that our society cherry-picks as…

Let's try your formulation in a different context and see if it works. Imagine someone saying this in the '50s: > There's a lot of media that uses caricatures to vilify [Blacks], but there is relatively little uproar from [Blacks] about it. They don't seem to be very sensitive apart from a small handful... I assure you, Christians are aware of how poorly they're portrayed by the media, and aren't happy about it. It s…

The actual lived conditions matter, too. In the 1950s, Black Americans were harassed, beaten and killed for registering to vote; no such discrimination against Christians has ever existed in the US, or even in North America or Europe, where the games we're talking about are largely developed and marketed.

I agree that Christians are sometimes treated more critically in popular culture. But this is simply criticizing those in positions of power. It's hard to argue that ethnic or other minorities enjoy those levels of power in any of the places these games are made or marketed.

To quote a certain comedian: "Christians won the world. The Christians won everything. If you don't believe me, let me ask you a question. What year is it?"

https://vimeo.com/215910765

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#215

Post by kemayo »

himinlomax wrote: post #41
dagw wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a fine argument as long as your game actually is historically accurate. The 'problem' (if you believe it is a problem) is once game companies are happy to "lie" about one aspect of history without any concern while at the same time refusing to "lie" about another part of history because it would 'ruin the historical accuracy'. If your samurai game includes werewolves and machine guns you don't get to turn aro…

> That is a fine argument as long as your game actually is historically accurate See, that makes some sense if you're doing high fantasy and shit that's set in a wholly fictional world. But just because some parts of a game are not realistic does not mean you should just forget about even trying. It makes no sense. > If your samurai game includes werewolves and machine guns you don't get to turn around say you didn't…

> but if the setting is the middle Ages it would be just stupid and lazy -- UNLESS there is some effort to bring some lore into it.

The article we're commenting on does make the point that people of African / Asian descent being present in middle-ages Europe isn't unreasonable:

"I will say that, as travelers and traders, it is not crazy that people with these backgrounds might be in England, even in the ninth century. The decision to include so many characters from Asia and so few from Africa is a bit more frustrating; I’d expect to see a lot more North Africans in 9th century England than either Middle Eastern or East/Central Asian characters (because it is closer, as a matter of trade-routes)."

The article's quibble is mostly with it concentrating them into your settlement, rather than around pre-existing trade hubs.

It's still a stretch to have a randomly diverse community... but the "historically accurate black African representation" is probably enough that you don't have to work at explaining a minority of diverse characters.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#216

Post by yoyohello13 »

flippinburgers wrote: post #213

The author exposes his biases by indicating that historically questionable accuracy in terms of racial diversity is perfectly OK but that glossing over the atrocities is NOT OK because of some phantom fear that modern day nazis will interpret it as a celebration of ... whiteness I guess. The entire thing comes across as white is bad. Further evidence of how academically overboard he is is illustrated by the fact that…

In his defence, he titled his blog "A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry".

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#217

Post by mcphage »

gwd wrote: post #201
throwaway894345 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In light of the parent comment, we should presume that the team had Christian representation and those Christians were fine with it, not that there were no Christians. There’s a lot of media that uses caricatures to vilify Christians (“Easy A” comes to mind), but there is relatively little uproar from Christians about it. They don’t seem to be very sensitive apart from a small handful that our society cherry-picks as…

Let's try your formulation in a different context and see if it works. Imagine someone saying this in the '50s: > There's a lot of media that uses caricatures to vilify [Blacks], but there is relatively little uproar from [Blacks] about it. They don't seem to be very sensitive apart from a small handful... I assure you, Christians are aware of how poorly they're portrayed by the media, and aren't happy about it. It s…

> I assure you, Christians are aware of how poorly they're portrayed by the media, and aren't happy about it. It seems to me that this is one of many factors that led many Christians to support Trump.

"I don't like how I'm portrayed, so I'll validate their criticisms through my actions" doesn't seem the best solution. If they don't like their portrayal, it seems they would be better off to make the portrayal better instead of making themselves worse.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#218

Post by etripe »

goto11 wrote: post #199
xalava wrote: post #38

The most relevant point of this article is not about historical accuracy, but on the contradiction of claiming cultural sensitivity by including gender and origin diversity while totally missing the point on deeper issues. I've grown up in a period when pop culture didn't care much about cultural sensitivity. With proper education anyone can compensate and treat them as pure simplistic fiction, but I do think that th…

> I've grown up in a period when pop culture didn't care much about cultural sensitivity. I don't think such a period ever existed. Hollywood had the Hays code, comics had the comic code etc. Popular culture always have to navigate the hangups and sensitivities of society. It is possible that these concerns were invisible to you because they corresponded to your own values. When they change because society changes, y…

> I don't think such a period ever existed.

Probably not in the US, no. Then again, the world is comprised of many other locations and cultures. Even in the West, I'd say mainly predominantly protestant countries (among which the anglosphere as a whole) tend towards political correctness.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#219

Post by tclancy »

quietbritishjim wrote: post #6

> > Inspired by historical events and characters, this work of fiction was designed, developed, and produced by a multicultural team of various beliefs, sexual orientations and gender identities. > This statement is making ... implicit [claims] (our diverse team means this game was produced in a careful, sensitive way) Ah, I think that's a misunderstanding of why the statement is there. It's not to claim that the gam…

I've been playing the game and was thinking last night that statement is (to me) an anachronism: it made sense in the first game where it was clearly dealing with the Middle East and choices made for the sake of a more playable game may have come across as culturally insensitive and started problems online. It felt a lot less likely people in the current world would be upset at or read deeply into the depictions of old Norse and Saxons, but it looks like I was wrong.

I would suggest, as the author seems to propose but not allow, many of the issues are there for the sake of game play: I am currently using a flail and questioning my choice every time I get whacked because the thing takes a week and a half to pull start. But it's the strongest one-handed weapon currently available to me. So it makes for interesting tradeoffs in a way "axe v sword" might not.

A similar case could be made for fudging the details about sexual equality among the old Norse. I doubt anyone is watching the game imagining Vikings were tender and considerate self-reflective modern males; it just makes the story flow better than having to watch a cut scene of 10 dudes throwing food at each other in conference.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#220

Post by awakeasleep »

enkid wrote: post #92
quietbritishjim wrote: post #6

> > Inspired by historical events and characters, this work of fiction was designed, developed, and produced by a multicultural team of various beliefs, sexual orientations and gender identities. > This statement is making ... implicit [claims] (our diverse team means this game was produced in a careful, sensitive way) Ah, I think that's a misunderstanding of why the statement is there. It's not to claim that the gam…

Having someone with an ethnicity present while making something offensive isn't a great defense for the offensive thing.

Someone with the authority to speak for your identity groups took part in the drafting of the quoted defense, and they were fine with it.
Post reply on HN