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French Scientist Didier Raoult Given Rusty Razor Award For Pseudoscience

skeptic.org.uk

41–50 of 74 posts

Re: French Scientist Didier Raoult Given Rusty Razor Award For Pseudoscience

#41
post #30

Technically the Chinese Wuhan Institute was first to recommended hydroxychloroquine as a possible solution (among at least one other drug) months before this guy and the politicians ever published anything about it. There was also a small town US doctor who claimed anecdotal success among his hundreds of clients who was highly influential very early on. And tons of other speculative ‘experts’ talking about it on YouT…

I spoke to a senior academic in respiratory disease, and also a practicing doctor, from a top UK university. He was absolutely convinced that HCQ helps in moderate Covid cases, with near-immediately observable effects.

Thia still puzzles me, presumably he understands things like placebo effect and double-blind studies intuitively, and yet studies show no improvement.

On a similar note, the WHO recommendation against the use of Remdesivir is widely criticised by doctors in Poland, as based on a poorly-thought-through study. The claim is that Remdesivir helps patients only at certain stages of the disease, whereas the WHO study doesn't differentiate between such stages.

On the one hand, there's people who use the drug day-in-day-out, on the other a huge organisation which I'd think can do good-quality science. I remain confused.

Re: French Scientist Didier Raoult Given Rusty Razor Award For Pseudoscience

#42
post #26

There's a media war on Raoult in France. I don't know if Chloroquine is effective on COVID 19, but I know that it's comically cheap and people took it for years against malaria without side effects. So at worse it's a placebo. On the other hand there's Remdesivir that's astronomically expensive, destroys kidneys and hasn't any effectiveness against COVID (even the OMS says so). But it's still the recommended treatmen…

So many things in this post are inaccurate here and are trivially debunkable.

care to elaborate?

Re: French Scientist Didier Raoult Given Rusty Razor Award For Pseudoscience

#43
post #38

> “It is hard to find an example of quackery that has spread so far, influencing the public health response to a deadly pandemic and creating widespread confusion across the entire globe.” It isn't hard: the Lancet has published a completely made-up study written by an unknown team, before they retracted the paper. If I wanted to fuel conspiracy theories, I don't think I could come up with anything better.

> “It is hard to find an example of quackery that has spread so far, influencing the public health response to a deadly pandemic and creating widespread confusion across the entire globe.” Or the WHO themselves claiming that masks do not work for months then suddenly reversing their position in the middle of the pandemic. But "Trust Science" they said.

"Or the WHO themselves claiming that masks do not work for months then suddenly reversing their position in the middle of the pandemic. But "Trust Science" they said"

Public Communications and Science are different things.

If masks are very scarce, and we need to ration, then we want to prioritize certain groups.

Once they are plentiful, the marginal benefit of masks becomes beneficial to the extent it doesn't interfere with front-line usage, in which case, we definitely want people o wear masks.

And so we use different words, mediums, forms of messaging to get people to change their behaviour, some of it more effective than others.

The medical community has to triage all the time, literally at your hospital right now, they are using their knowledge to ration the resources they have available at any given moment. If you complain of 'chest pain' then you go to the front of the line.

The Razor Award should be a thing now, because news about some kinds of science spreads quickly.

Re: French Scientist Didier Raoult Given Rusty Razor Award For Pseudoscience

#44
post #25

I think the Lanced study about hydroxychloroquine that was later retracted deserved this award much more as it was completely made up.

But it was retracted shortly after. The process worked ultimately. Raoult has yet to admit anything.

Perhaps b/c Raoult's work was correct?

Studies that use HCQ+ZINC+AZITROMYCIN EARLY (in the first 3-4 days after Covid symptoms appear) and in the proper dosage have consistently shown tremendous improvement in outcome.

But most studies apply those medicines AFTER HOSPITALIZATION (often 1-2 weeks after symptoms appear), which is far, far too late for them to be effective. Other studies gave massive overdoses of HCQ which can interfere with the heart rhythm. So the studies were "designed to fail" and did.

Raoult has nothing to apologize for; he was correct and has been vindicated by other properly-executed studies.

Re: French Scientist Didier Raoult Given Rusty Razor Award For Pseudoscience

#45
I don't want to advocate for Didier Raoult but calling such a renown professor all over the world a pseudo scientist is a bit harsh... What is the legitimacy of these judges? Only a few people have the knowledge to debate about this subject, it's all about politics right now, not science

Re: French Scientist Didier Raoult Given Rusty Razor Award For Pseudoscience

#46

There's a media war on Raoult in France. I don't know if Chloroquine is effective on COVID 19, but I know that it's comically cheap and people took it for years against malaria without side effects. So at worse it's a placebo. On the other hand there's Remdesivir that's astronomically expensive, destroys kidneys and hasn't any effectiveness against COVID (even the OMS says so). But it's still the recommended treatmen…

"So at worse it's a placebo."

No, telling the masses that something works when it does not is much more than a placebo, it's very bad.

Re: French Scientist Didier Raoult Given Rusty Razor Award For Pseudoscience

#47

President Macron actually paid a visit to Raoult back in April. The visit probably inadvertently cast a gigantic spotlight on the shoddy (or at best preliminary) research. In my opinion it reflected quite poorly on the quality of Macron's scientific council. More generally, I spent way too much time comparing the pandemic responses of various European countries. For France, one thing that stood out to me was an outsi…

> President Macron actually paid a visit to Raoult back in April. The visit probably inadvertently cast a gigantic spotlight on the shoddy (or at best preliminary) research. In my opinion it reflected quite poorly on the quality of Macron's scientific council.

By the time Macron visited Raoult, the spotlight was already on and shining bright. He was more or less forced to visit him for domestic political reasons: Raoult tapped straight into the anti-establishment anti-elite yellow-vest zietgeist , if Macron hadn't at least shown some gesture towards him they would have seized the trope of the "intellectual snob who is too aloof to talk to the people and their hero". The populist politicians from the south of france were already riding the Raoult train by then: Estrosi, Melenchon etc

So he went, he talked, he got his photo taken, and he left. Raoult got the attention he craves, Macron took some bullets out of the guns of his enemies, and nothing much happened. I agree that a more principled stand would have been nice, but that's politics :/

Re: French Scientist Didier Raoult Given Rusty Razor Award For Pseudoscience

#48

As an actual pharmacologist I find it fascinating how the general public has suddenly taken such a poorly informed interest in drug discovery. For the HN audience it would be like people taking an almost tribal approach to go-lang vs rust, debating it on national television, without any of them knowing what a loop is.

That is an interesting point, and I think there are at least two factors in this tribalism. Firstly, there is a faction of the population (or maybe most of us, at some time or other) who choose what they believe on the basis of whether it would lead to outcomes they would prefer, rather than on evidence for or against the proposition. Then there is another faction who assume that if you do not agree with them, then you must have bad motives. The sort of tribalism we are seeing here (and elsewhere) arises in the intersection of these tendencies, and people who take the first position over this matter are 'primed' to also take the second: they want the virus defeated, so if you are skeptical of this treatment, you must want the pandemic to continue, right? And people who realize that the evidence is not good may suspect those who insist that the treatment is effective of having ulterior motives.

Re: French Scientist Didier Raoult Given Rusty Razor Award For Pseudoscience

#49

As an actual pharmacologist I find it fascinating how the general public has suddenly taken such a poorly informed interest in drug discovery. For the HN audience it would be like people taking an almost tribal approach to go-lang vs rust, debating it on national television, without any of them knowing what a loop is.

People took interest because the idea was seductive. COVID anxiety dominated the news cycle and made everyone feel hopeless. HCQ arrived on the scene as a purported miracle solution. Everyone wanted to believe it was the antidote to the COVID problems.

> For the HN audience it would be like people taking an almost tribal approach to go-lang vs rust, debating it on national television, without any of them knowing what a loop is.

In the business world, this happens far too often. Usually a non-technical manager reads hyperbolic internet chatter about how Rust is the only way to write secure code or that Node.js will boost productivity by allowing your front-end devs to write back-end code, then they assume their understanding is superior to that of the actual programmers.

Once the non-technical people start having strong opinions on technical decisions that disagree with the experts, it’s not a good sign for the company. Likewise, once the president started advocating for medications that weren’t supported by evidence, it was obvious that this administration had no idea what they were doing with their response.

Re: French Scientist Didier Raoult Given Rusty Razor Award For Pseudoscience

#50
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This award isn't about those other studies, it's about his choice to over-egg his research. > Subsequent analysis of Raoult’s data found that his sample size was incredibly small, with only 6 patients given the hydroxychloroquine/azithromycin combination. The study was also found to be improperly controlled, and data was excluded for a number of patients whose condition worsened as they were either transferred to int…

None of this makes his research "pseudoscience".

> Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence

Can we claim that we have some evidence based on a sample of 6 people?

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