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The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

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Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#131

Post by rleigh »

bawolff wrote: post #117
apatters wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but for almost everyone, there's a dollar figure at which they're willing to stop having fun and start making money. Maybe that dollar figure is $1,000/hr for some open source maintainer out there (I bet it's much lower for most of them). Why not put a line in the readme which says, if you want to commission a specific change, send me an email to discuss, my consulting rate starts at $XXX/hr. Or there's a $YYYY…

I imagine if someone is willing to pay a maintainer $1000/hr (implying they are that desperate to hire someone), the maintainer wouldn't need a line in the readme to hear about it. As someone who tried their hand at doing paid "consulting" work on an open source project i contributed to (just very briefly when i was between jobs. I wasn't very succesful at it. Nobody offered me $1000/hr) most of the jobs were very sm…

This was exactly my experience of "consulting". I too was between jobs, and it seemed like an idea worth trying. At the very least, something interesting to keep me occupied while unemployed. And it was an interesting experience to set up and run a company, which I don't begrudge. But when I looked at my effective hourly rate, it was below minimum wage.

It did give me some perspective on running companies, negotiating contracts and billing with an hourly/daily rate vs fixed price per contract. I would certainly increase what I was billing by several times were I to repeat it, but having a sustainable source of business before starting would also be something I would factor in.

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#132

Post by iamericfletcher »

Nadia's book, Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software, which is mentioned in the article, inspired me to become a GitHub sponsor. Nothing big, just $10 per month to one of my favorite open source developers. If you can afford it, I recommend others' do the same.

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#133

Post by saagarjha »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #130

Is it actually feasible to just say "no contributions or support requests will be accepted for this project"? Or to have an hourly rate for support requests right up front? ("if you want me to fix this project for your use-case then I will charge you $100/hour to do that") And in the case of abusers, can you add a list of specific indivuals to the licence that are specifically disallowed from using the code in any fo…

As someone who works on open source, sure, you can totally do that–but for me, personally, those aren't really things I would want to do. The first locks out people who want to contribute, which kind of removes half the reason you'd open source something in the first place, the second feels like you could leave in bugs and ransom them for support money, and in the third you are introducing your own subjectivity in ways which frequently do not go as planned. I totally understand why people would do all three, but for me personally they just aren't for me, and I hope you can understand why some people would be turned off by such projects.

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#134

Post by names_are_hard »

rleigh wrote: post #129
apatters wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but for almost everyone, there's a dollar figure at which they're willing to stop having fun and start making money. Maybe that dollar figure is $1,000/hr for some open source maintainer out there (I bet it's much lower for most of them). Why not put a line in the readme which says, if you want to commission a specific change, send me an email to discuss, my consulting rate starts at $XXX/hr. Or there's a $YYYY…

Having a full-time and well-paid job means that open source work is in my spare time, and that time is limited and precious. I don't actually want to be paid for that. Or have any written or unwritten major obligations to others. The amount I need would have to be a full-time job that pays better than my current full-time job, and that will be expensive. I've previously worked on large open-source projects like Debia…

I have the same issue as you, not in open source but in freelancing. Occasionally I'm approached by someone in my network who needs a few hours of software development. In the past I tried this, figuring that I may as well earn a few bucks on the side during my free time.

But then I realized the enormous overhead that comes with taking payments in Israel. I'd need to open an account with the tax authorities and deal with a bunch of paperwork I don't understand. So now I'm busy learning the tax system or hiring an accountant... it's just not worth it unless they're going to commit to a large amount of hours, but I do value my free time as well. So either you pay me enough to quit my full-time job at a big company or forget about it. It's hard to do small amounts of freelance work because of the onerous regulatory environment.

All this is different for USians, who have to file tax returns every year anyway and simply need to add another source of income on their 1040.

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#135

Post by rusticpenn »

throwawaywrench wrote: post #58
rectang wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most pull requests are crap. They are drive-by fixes that do not take maintainability into account, because they only solve the problem that the PR submitter needs solved right now . Transforming a sloppy drive-by patch into something which doesn't pile on technical debt is hard . For all but the most brilliantly architected projects, it requires someone who can keep the entire project in their head — a core maintain…

>because they only solve the problem that the PR submitter needs solved right now. This is something that can lead to angry interactions between maintainers and pull request raisers. Never mind adding technical debt, pull requests can outright break uses cases they don't care about in order to implement the single use case they do care about. raiser: "Merge my PR. It fixes this issue." maintainer: "It fixes this sing…

A good test strategy would fix the problem. "Your PR fails all these tests, so can you make them all work before submitting the request?"

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#136

Post by themodelplumber »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #130

Is it actually feasible to just say "no contributions or support requests will be accepted for this project"? Or to have an hourly rate for support requests right up front? ("if you want me to fix this project for your use-case then I will charge you $100/hour to do that") And in the case of abusers, can you add a list of specific indivuals to the licence that are specifically disallowed from using the code in any fo…

You can always choose to just say those things, but if it's worth doing, the language and approach should make it more likely that the general community response will be better for you than saying nothing at all. To me that means being gentle and professional about wording and boundaries, (which is easier provided one is not absolutely shattered by their work experience). Examples:

- We are currently backlogged and may be unable to accept contributions or support requests.

- Need support? We may be able to help. Contact us for bespoke personal or commercial support and development rates. (Packages start at...)

- We are evaluating license revocations for those who violate our clearly-written and frequently reviewed community standards, which you can review at this link.

Support abuse situations are often best dealt with situation-by-situation, though, and unfortunately I didn't see a specific, real-world example in the article. Sometimes just the possibility of someone taking advantage is a turn-off for a good project owner, so I would add that at the very least it's a good idea to have a general communication plan & principles in place before that happens.

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#137

Post by marcus_holmes »

saagarjha wrote: post #133
marcus_holmes wrote: post #130

Is it actually feasible to just say "no contributions or support requests will be accepted for this project"? Or to have an hourly rate for support requests right up front? ("if you want me to fix this project for your use-case then I will charge you $100/hour to do that") And in the case of abusers, can you add a list of specific indivuals to the licence that are specifically disallowed from using the code in any fo…

As someone who works on open source, sure, you can totally do that–but for me, personally, those aren't really things I would want to do. The first locks out people who want to contribute, which kind of removes half the reason you'd open source something in the first place, the second feels like you could leave in bugs and ransom them for support money, and in the third you are introducing your own subjectivity in wa…

Thanks, that's useful.

I guess I'm happy to open-source my code for other people to use, but I'm not at all interested in acquiring an unpaid job as "maintainer" (and I really don't care how many other people use my code).

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#138

Post by okareaman »

pmoriarty wrote: post #2

How much better the world would be if open source was fully funded by some of those tech billionaires whose fortunes were made by sitting on its shoulders.

I said essentially the same thing 10 days ago and this is what Walter Bright, creator of D, said: "There are a number of generous corporations and individuals helping us out in various ways, including cash contributions to the D Foundation."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25040397

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#139

Post by marcus_holmes »

themodelplumber wrote: post #136
marcus_holmes wrote: post #130

Is it actually feasible to just say "no contributions or support requests will be accepted for this project"? Or to have an hourly rate for support requests right up front? ("if you want me to fix this project for your use-case then I will charge you $100/hour to do that") And in the case of abusers, can you add a list of specific indivuals to the licence that are specifically disallowed from using the code in any fo…

You can always choose to just say those things, but if it's worth doing, the language and approach should make it more likely that the general community response will be better for you than saying nothing at all. To me that means being gentle and professional about wording and boundaries, (which is easier provided one is not absolutely shattered by their work experience). Examples: - We are currently backlogged and m…

Thanks for the info.

I'm curious why there is a need for "professional" standards here?

I feel that this is, by definition, not "professional" - that would require payment.

Also, the imbalance of jerks behaving like jerks but everyone else has to act responsibly: in a work setting, sure - you don't get to choose your colleagues and you need to get along. But in this setting - why can't a maintainer just tell a jerk to fk off?

Re: The Few, the Tired, the Open Source Coders

#140

Post by toyg »

bawolff wrote: post #72
apatters wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something I never understood is why don't more maintainers just post the rate at which they'd be willing to do the work other people want? I suspect very few open source maintainers are doing so well financially that there's NO rate they would accept to perform other people's requests for their own project. Whatever number it would take to motivate you to do the work, just put it out there. Aside from the fact that y…

Lots of people do this as a hobby - getting paid for a hobby is a very good way to make it not fun anymore. If its consistent $$$ that might be worth it. For a one shot thing, maybe not as much. I think it also can be difficult to mix volunteer stuff with money. Posting in a bug tracker that multiple people work from which anyone can take on a bug from, that you will do it for $x, can make it feel like you're using a…

> getting paid for a hobby is a very good way to make it not fun anymore.

... or, in theory, to turn your hobby into your work, which I'm sure somebody would like (i.e. me, but somehow in 20 years it has never happened).

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