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Beirut Port Explosion

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Re: Beirut Port Explosion

#81

Post by aaronmdjones »

yyyk wrote: post #71

This investigation ignores a key question: How many kg of ammonium nitrate was actually in the warehouse. Surely that's extremely important to the models. They only mention an mtv news report mentioning the stated figure of 2750t. That figure comes from the ship's documents. Yet there are estimates that suggest the actual explosion is only equivalent to 1000-1500t[0], or 700-1000t[1]. If the actual amount of nitrate…

The first link suggests the blast was equivalent to 1000-1500 tonnes of TNT. Ammonium nitrate is not as powerful as TNT (Trinitrotoluene); therefore you require more of it for the same effect.

Edit: The second link is probably misquoted and is also an estimation in terms of TNT. This is common; nuclear weapon yields are also stated in terms of TNT for example, despite not containing any.

Re: Beirut Port Explosion

#82

Post by lostlogin »

louwrentius wrote: post #19

This was amazing to watch. Highly recommended. I do start to wonder if any of such materials are stored like this in one of our ports, such as Rotterdam, The Netherlands. I can't imagine such a mess to exist there. But The Netherlands remembers the Firework explosion in Enschede, from 2000. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enschede_fireworks_disaster It's not nearly at the scale of Beirut, but it killed 23 people.

Not exactly ‘stored’ but it’s one hell of a mess - the sunken explosives near London. If those went up the theories on what happens are horrifying.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/...

Re: Beirut Port Explosion

#83

Post by hutzlibu »

merpnderp wrote: post #63
pjc50 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OSINT is certainly a thing, but there's a parallel development in shamelessness and polarization so that accurate reporting of the real history of events makes much less difference. Are there that many people whose support of the police will be shaken by the NYT report, or is the support of the police a matter of political affiliation that leads them to dismiss it as "biased"?

You've reduced this to only two possible positions: support the police or don't support them. How polarizing is that? What about supporting the need for police while also supporting a need for reforming the police? I doubt there are even many cops that would disagree with a need for reform to some degree. But creating two extreme positions, and then lumping everyone into those positions, is called politics and is con…

"But creating two extreme positions, and then lumping everyone into those positions, is called politics"

Nice definition. Sadly, way too accurate.

Re: Beirut Port Explosion

#84

Post by jjk166 »

merpnderp wrote: post #63
pjc50 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OSINT is certainly a thing, but there's a parallel development in shamelessness and polarization so that accurate reporting of the real history of events makes much less difference. Are there that many people whose support of the police will be shaken by the NYT report, or is the support of the police a matter of political affiliation that leads them to dismiss it as "biased"?

You've reduced this to only two possible positions: support the police or don't support them. How polarizing is that? What about supporting the need for police while also supporting a need for reforming the police? I doubt there are even many cops that would disagree with a need for reform to some degree. But creating two extreme positions, and then lumping everyone into those positions, is called politics and is con…

Both the positions that police should completely cease to exist and that no reform should ever be carried out are so rare that they represent straw men.

When people talk about "support for the police" they are either referring to the degree to which they are comfortable with reform, or disingenuously trying to portray the situation as more partisan than it is.

Re: Beirut Port Explosion

#85

Post by yyyk »

aaronmdjones wrote: post #81
yyyk wrote: post #71

This investigation ignores a key question: How many kg of ammonium nitrate was actually in the warehouse. Surely that's extremely important to the models. They only mention an mtv news report mentioning the stated figure of 2750t. That figure comes from the ship's documents. Yet there are estimates that suggest the actual explosion is only equivalent to 1000-1500t[0], or 700-1000t[1]. If the actual amount of nitrate…

The first link suggests the blast was equivalent to 1000-1500 tonnes of TNT . Ammonium nitrate is not as powerful as TNT (Trinitrotoluene); therefore you require more of it for the same effect. Edit: The second link is probably misquoted and is also an estimation in terms of TNT. This is common; nuclear weapon yields are also stated in terms of TNT for example, despite not containing any.

Good point. Any idea what would be typical TNT value of 2750kg of Ammonium Nitrate?

Re: Beirut Port Explosion

#86

Post by [deleted] »

holler wrote: post #79

From a laymen's perspective, it's hard to imagine just how negligent the port authorities could have been in managing the warehouse. 2750tons high-explosive Ammonium Nitrate? Check. 50tons Ammonium Phosphate? Check. Stacks of flammable wooden pallets among Ammonium Nitrate? Check. 1000 flammable rubber car tires? Check. 23tons of explosive fireworks? 5 rolls of detonator cord? Check. I mean... how/why?

[deleted]

Re: Beirut Port Explosion

#87

Post by aaronmdjones »

yyyk wrote: post #85
aaronmdjones wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first link suggests the blast was equivalent to 1000-1500 tonnes of TNT . Ammonium nitrate is not as powerful as TNT (Trinitrotoluene); therefore you require more of it for the same effect. Edit: The second link is probably misquoted and is also an estimation in terms of TNT. This is common; nuclear weapon yields are also stated in terms of TNT for example, despite not containing any.

Good point. Any idea what would be typical TNT value of 2750kg of Ammonium Nitrate?

According to [1]; 880kg (Edit: Though you meant to ask for 2750t, in which case, 880t). Not far off the estimated yield of the blast. Note that the effectiveness would be affected by contaminants and storage conditions.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT_equivalent#Relative_effect...

Re: Beirut Port Explosion

#89

Post by spurgu »

merpnderp wrote: post #63
pjc50 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OSINT is certainly a thing, but there's a parallel development in shamelessness and polarization so that accurate reporting of the real history of events makes much less difference. Are there that many people whose support of the police will be shaken by the NYT report, or is the support of the police a matter of political affiliation that leads them to dismiss it as "biased"?

You've reduced this to only two possible positions: support the police or don't support them. How polarizing is that? What about supporting the need for police while also supporting a need for reforming the police? I doubt there are even many cops that would disagree with a need for reform to some degree. But creating two extreme positions, and then lumping everyone into those positions, is called politics and is con…

> But creating two extreme positions, and then lumping everyone into those positions, is called politics

American politics. The amount of bipartisan countries in the world can be counted on one hand. But I get what you're saying and I agree completely.

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