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Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

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Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#11
post #6
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most FPS games were literally consolized. Until Halo came around, no one could make a FPS work because a controller was too slow and imprecise. Halo's trick was to sloooow the action down. The chunky thing was why making levels for DooM was so easy. Prodeus (early access) also has easy to use level editor, but currently the game has some design problems - such as dumb and slow monsters. Those in DooM were also dumb,…

> Until Halo came around Goldeneye and Turok would like to have a word, if you have a moment.

I can't speak for Turok (I only played it once, and don't remember anything about it other than something something dinosaurs), but Goldeneye probably doesn't have much of a word here; its controls were clunky as shit. And sure, that was part of the fun, and it's still an iconic game, but I'm very much glad that modern FPS games have adopted more sane control schemes.

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#12
post #3
post #2

Just the other day I was wondering whether these old games were just so much fun because I was much younger and it was simply something new and exciting to me, or whether there's something else to it. You know, sometimes less is more, if the game world is just about detailed enough that you can make out what things are supposed to be, you have to let the creative part of your brain do much more work to fill in the bl…

Most FPS games were literally consolized. Until Halo came around, no one could make a FPS work because a controller was too slow and imprecise. Halo's trick was to sloooow the action down. The chunky thing was why making levels for DooM was so easy. Prodeus (early access) also has easy to use level editor, but currently the game has some design problems - such as dumb and slow monsters. Those in DooM were also dumb,…

>Halo's trick was to sloooow the action down.

I agree that the action was slower, however, Halo's real trick was designing a set of weapons that were fun to use, but were mostly horribly inaccurate. The sniper was the clear exception.

I did a controller VS mouse/keyboard competition with Halo 1 on PC vs the best console Halo player in my Battalion when we were deployed to Kuwait. We would both use the same weapons at the same time for most of the games to make it fair and objective since we were doing it out of curiosity. We were mostly even with the majority of the weapons. With the shotgun the console player had a clear advantage although I don't know why because I would have assumed a mouse would still be faster (maybe it was just me). When we were using sniper rifles, however, with my mouse and keyboard vs a controller it was like playing against someone that had never played Halo before. The mouse was just too quick and accurate and at that point Halo hadn't developed a really egregious form of aim assist yet. The funny thing about this last observation was that I was the one that had barely ever played Halo.

Note: I don't look down on people that prefer gaming on a console and I have enjoyed my Switch/PS4 immensely. For some genres an analog controller is objectively superior without purposefully implementing a software advantage to balance things out like many games choose to do with aim assist. I do tend to agree with Shroud's opinion that when it comes to competitive play at a certain level of MM rank they should just have separate queues for each controller type. Ultimately its a tradeoff though because if queues for a game like COD:Warzone were forcibly separated the game's community on PC would have died completely after a month or two like previous games did.

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#14
post #2

Just the other day I was wondering whether these old games were just so much fun because I was much younger and it was simply something new and exciting to me, or whether there's something else to it. You know, sometimes less is more, if the game world is just about detailed enough that you can make out what things are supposed to be, you have to let the creative part of your brain do much more work to fill in the bl…

It’s interesting to think about the constraints that bring about a level of self-narrative in games. Here you point out the graphics, and I think mostly textual games like the Football Manager series also evoke these feelings. But on the flip side I think a lot of modern open world games are a response to the very constrained paths and mazes of the some eras of first person shooter, giving players back the ability to follow their own story to an extent.

I think RPGs especially have paid a big price as fidelity has gone up. The move to voice acting lost us rich, broad textual interactions with every NPC, the waypoints-and-cutscenes that give us almost film-like narratives mean that role play is now largely limited to a small number of paths (good/evil or strong/stealthy). The complexity of these games has really gone down overall, and while they’re often wonderful storytelling experiences you’re right it’s far less _your_ story in many modern games.

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#15
post #2

Just the other day I was wondering whether these old games were just so much fun because I was much younger and it was simply something new and exciting to me, or whether there's something else to it. You know, sometimes less is more, if the game world is just about detailed enough that you can make out what things are supposed to be, you have to let the creative part of your brain do much more work to fill in the bl…

>you have to let the creative part of your brain do much more work to fill in the blanks, x100 this. Quake 1 was terrifying for me even though the pixelated graphics are poor by todays standard because my imagination would fill in the blanks making things feel way more scary. Just take a look at these pixelated creatures. Coupled with the soundtrack from NIN and Trent Reznor and the gothic atmosphere they feel way sc…

I think you are on to something about the impact being forced to use your imagination has. Quake 1 had amazing art direction and each chapter had its own feel because each of them was designed by a different dev following his own ideas.

I think perhaps the biggest reason why Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal don't feel "creepy" like the old games is because they are completely missing the point. The newer games are fun, beautiful, well designed games. However, instead of making a game that captures the essence of Doom its more like a Michael Bay version of Doom. Instead of desperately fighting never ending hordes of increasingly horrifying creatures from hell so you can get out in one piece and save the world, you're an unkillable demigod that's basically dunking on armies of demons for lulz. The whole way the story makes it seem like its a foregone conclusion that you've won. Its not a struggle, its just you punishing the hordes of hell that are powerless to stop you.

Aesthetically they nailed the look of the creatures although as you pointed out less can be more. The sound track is good but at some point the composer was consumed by his own pretentiousness (IMO Dusk's composer that replaced him produces far better "Doom" music). The combat is fun and if it wasn't a Doom game it would still be rightly lauded as one of the best shooters of the generation, but glory kills annihilate the flow of the game IMO and detract from any authentic feeling it may have had. Glory kills feel like shortened, dumbed-down quick time events that you're supposed to spam the entire time you play and quick time events always feel bad.

They are some of the best single player games I've played in years, but I was there with Id since the Commander Keen games and this does not feel like a Doom game to me.

I mean its literally a Doom game, but the franchise has clearly lost something and I feel like a lot of the people that preach about how authentically they captured the experience might be too young to have bothered to play it.

Doom II: Hell On Earth is IMO one of the top 5 games of all time. Quake 1 is also on the list. I hope some day we get proper remakes or spiritual successors that capture not just the aesthetic, but the feel and the point of the original games.

Dusk was a decently sized step in the right direction.

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#16
post #2

Just the other day I was wondering whether these old games were just so much fun because I was much younger and it was simply something new and exciting to me, or whether there's something else to it. You know, sometimes less is more, if the game world is just about detailed enough that you can make out what things are supposed to be, you have to let the creative part of your brain do much more work to fill in the bl…

When there is a lack of information, our imagination works. It is taken to the extreme with roguelikes (with ASCII graphics) such as ADOM. Even now, Jupiter Hell (the successor of DoomRL) is less attractive for me because of its polished graphics.

But I think that there is another aspect - polishing gameplay & pace. Contemporary shooters often have too many cutscenes, too many things to add to the story (and equipment, and everything) that distract from instead of complement the experience. The minimalism of games like Doom, with a fast, uninterrupted pace, is still a masterpiece. Fine-tuning mechanics is hard.

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#17
post #6
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most FPS games were literally consolized. Until Halo came around, no one could make a FPS work because a controller was too slow and imprecise. Halo's trick was to sloooow the action down. The chunky thing was why making levels for DooM was so easy. Prodeus (early access) also has easy to use level editor, but currently the game has some design problems - such as dumb and slow monsters. Those in DooM were also dumb,…

> Until Halo came around Goldeneye and Turok would like to have a word, if you have a moment.

Which games imitate Goldeneye and Turok? I mean I guess you have a point that these games work, but the fact they've been ignored by game designers is telling something.

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#18
What I like about 90s shooters is how little fuss there is to get to the action. Doom, you launch it and can be killing things within 15 seconds. With modern shooters, it loading, loading, game selection, lobby, connecting, loading, cutscene, weapon selection, tutorial, realizing you need to grind to get better weapons, pay for better weapons, mission objectives, notified there's an update, enter your credentials, reset your password. Start game. die. wait in the lobby for the next round. maybe then you get your first kill. Mentally taxing. i miss the simplicity of old games.

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#19
post #2

Just the other day I was wondering whether these old games were just so much fun because I was much younger and it was simply something new and exciting to me, or whether there's something else to it. You know, sometimes less is more, if the game world is just about detailed enough that you can make out what things are supposed to be, you have to let the creative part of your brain do much more work to fill in the bl…

>you have to let the creative part of your brain do much more work to fill in the blanks, x100 this. Quake 1 was terrifying for me even though the pixelated graphics are poor by todays standard because my imagination would fill in the blanks making things feel way more scary. Just take a look at these pixelated creatures. Coupled with the soundtrack from NIN and Trent Reznor and the gothic atmosphere they feel way sc…

I think you're underestimating Quake's sound design and Lovecraftian influences by Sandy Petersen.

For me the games that best illustrate this are ancient Ultima games. Ultima I-IV have tile based symbolic graphics. Ultima V also is tile-based, but makes an effort to represent every torch, chair, brazier; as much detail as they can fit. Fallen Enchantress screenshots worked for me, but the game itself was a failure.

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#20
post #16
post #2

Just the other day I was wondering whether these old games were just so much fun because I was much younger and it was simply something new and exciting to me, or whether there's something else to it. You know, sometimes less is more, if the game world is just about detailed enough that you can make out what things are supposed to be, you have to let the creative part of your brain do much more work to fill in the bl…

When there is a lack of information, our imagination works. It is taken to the extreme with roguelikes (with ASCII graphics) such as ADOM. Even now, Jupiter Hell (the successor of DoomRL) is less attractive for me because of its polished graphics. But I think that there is another aspect - polishing gameplay & pace. Contemporary shooters often have too many cutscenes, too many things to add to the story (and equipmen…

Which games do you use as reference for "Contemporary shooters", and did you actually play them?

A pattern I see each time there are discussions about games, is to compare games in the past, actually played, with contemporary games, as observed in reviews or youtube videos (which, additionally, biases towards AAA-games, since they have more coverage).

To answer the parent:

> Just the other day I was wondering whether these old games were just so much fun because I was much younger and it was simply something new and exciting to me, or whether there's something else to it.

This is the nostalgia lens, and there are a couple of reasons.

The first is that today the gaming landscape is considerably wider than it was, because the barrier to entry is considerably lower, but one instinctually considers just the AAA games, and additionally, the noisier ones. There has been "one" Doom and Quake for some time, and with reasons - there was one Carmack only. Today there are plenty.

Second, one forgets very easily how games could have poor mechanics. From the article:

> But not everything from the past is being included in Dusk. “I want to avoid unintuitive navigation and overly obscure puzzles,” Szymanski said. Not everything transfers so well into the present day.

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