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The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable

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Re: The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable

#41

Post by gizmo686 »

xevrem wrote: post #38

I still don't understand what they mean by "loss". Why is this even a problem? The information isn't gone, its right -there- in the black hole, which until proven otherwise, is part of the universe. Until someone can prove the universe cares whether the info is in a black hole or not, its not really a problem is it? If anything the universe usually shows it doesn't care what we humans think, its going to do its own t…

The black hole is not eternal. Once it is fully evaporated, you still need to account for the information that was contained within (or accept information loss).

Re: The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable

#44

Post by waterhouse »

burrows wrote: post #37
shaded-enmity wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused, isn't the whole schtick around past events being related to future events the basis of causality?

What evidence do we have that causality will continue to “exist”?

People who believe that past experience is a good predictor of the future will make decent predictions as a result; people who believe that past experience has nothing to do with the future ("anti-inductivists") will make wrong predictions again and again. The inductivists will therefore outcompete the anti-inductivists.

On the other hand, as a friend of mine pointed out, for the anti-inductivists that manage to exist, although they keep suffering from making wrong predictions, they will not see this as a reason to change their philosophy, so they are stuck in an epistemic trap. Since evidence has no meaning for them, no evidence can change their minds.

Re: The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable

#45

Post by cli »

xevrem wrote: post #38

I still don't understand what they mean by "loss". Why is this even a problem? The information isn't gone, its right -there- in the black hole, which until proven otherwise, is part of the universe. Until someone can prove the universe cares whether the info is in a black hole or not, its not really a problem is it? If anything the universe usually shows it doesn't care what we humans think, its going to do its own t…

I believe this was addressed in the first few paragraphs of the article: this problem is not about 'information', which is a vague phrase. Rather, it is about how black hole evaporation is fundamentally time irreversible.

Re: The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable

#48

Post by xevrem »

cli wrote: post #45
xevrem wrote: post #38

I still don't understand what they mean by "loss". Why is this even a problem? The information isn't gone, its right -there- in the black hole, which until proven otherwise, is part of the universe. Until someone can prove the universe cares whether the info is in a black hole or not, its not really a problem is it? If anything the universe usually shows it doesn't care what we humans think, its going to do its own t…

I believe this was addressed in the first few paragraphs of the article: this problem is not about 'information', which is a vague phrase. Rather, it is about how black hole evaporation is fundamentally time irreversible.

but wasn't the evaporation of black holes a suggested solution by hawking for information being "lost forever" in a black hole?

i.e., hawking radiation is itself unconfirmed, so its a "solution" for something that remains unproven :|

Re: The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable

#49

Post by saagarjha »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #23
whimsicalism wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically.. and this is somewhat lay: in quantum mechanics, there is fundamental randomness. Part of that randomness means that in space, virtual pairs of particles can be formed right at the barrier between being able to escape and not escape. Normally, these particles annihilate each other - however if one crosses the threshold and is not able to escape, it can't annihilate the other particle and that escapes as ra…

So similar to “anti particles”?

Well, the pair created can be thought of as as a particle and an antiparticle, one of which falls in.

Re: The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable

#50

Post by whimsicalism »

waterhouse wrote: post #44
burrows wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence do we have that causality will continue to “exist”?

People who believe that past experience is a good predictor of the future will make decent predictions as a result; people who believe that past experience has nothing to do with the future ("anti-inductivists") will make wrong predictions again and again. The inductivists will therefore outcompete the anti-inductivists. On the other hand, as a friend of mine pointed out, for the anti-inductivists that manage to exis…

> The inductivists will therefore outcompete the anti-inductivists.

You have no deductive or a priori reason to know this, rhetoric about "epistemically traps" aside.

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