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Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

lore.kernel.org

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Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#121
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intransigent minority [1] strikes again. Perhaps the tech community should grow a spine and stand up to the minority that demands these sort of changes. That is: if the tech community /really/ doesn't want them, which (to me) is unclear. [1] https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...

As an actual American minority I'm a little upset that instead of someone trying to do something meaningful about racism they bikeshedded this solution. Git was made by a man from Finland, I find it highly unlikely he had nefarious intentions in naming the default branch 'master' and anybody who disagrees really needs to reevaluate everything we know about Linus. He doesn't care about people's attributes, he cares ab…

As another American minority I welcome changes to our tooling landscape and updating out of date language.

No this doesn't do anything, but it significantly reduces the amount of time I have to say master in discussions related to code. Something I personally don't feel comfortable saying.

No this isn't going to fix systemic racism, but it is setting the precedent that our standards can and should evolve with culture and people.

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#122
post #52
post #9

Sigh... sad to see the tech community bullied into compliance over a non-issue by political correctness activists. It's not really that big of a deal (and in some ways "main" is better anyway because it's 2 characters shorter), it's just the principle of the thing that bothers me. I would rather see projects and people stand their ground instead of caving to pressure anytime a twitter mob comes along.

I am happy to see this. You say bullied into compliance but all I see is a community consciously putting efforts to become more inclusive. It may not be that big of a deal for you but it is a big deal for those who don’t share the same worldview as you. Are your principals so low that you wouldn’t accommodate change of language and behavior to be more welcoming of others? What do you think about people who curse like…

Same here, I honestly don't even get why people are angry about this.

You're saying master isn't a big deal, well, neither is main. Would've you cared if git updates this without the discourse of "let's remove master from our everyday conversations."

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#123
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree that this specific change is insignificant, but the biggest deep learning conference has been renamed, after something like 20 years, because of this kind of pressure. Word policing has a bit of a 1984 feel to it. Some desire to control you and how you think by controlling which words you use, with new arbitrary words being banned all the time. Instead of actual change, we're focusing on the superficial…

you're having it both ways in your comment here: if it's only superficial and doesn't actually change anything, then you can safely ignore it. it only matters if it is actually controlling how you think (in which case, it is not superficial and is an actual change) you can argue that it is the wrong change, or that the end doesn't justify the means, etc, but it doesn't make sense to say that it is both thought contro…

It's superficial as in it's addressing the wrong problem. You're not going to undo racism by eliminating the word master from spoken and written language. A word, which, once again, has multiple meanings. It's like you guys don't understand that context and intent matter 1000 times more than the choice of words.

It's wrong because trying to censor the way everyone expresses themselves because a hypothetical person might be offended is a form of bullying.

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#124
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like complaining about a disagreement in direction of an open source project while not wanting to put effort in directing it in the way you like via the normal channels, forking or contribution, to be immature.

I feel like demanding contribution as a response to criticism of open source software is immature. Just because you decided to let everyone see and use your code, doesn't mean someone can't say something negative about it. That is not some sort of privilege reserved for contributors.

So what are the downsides of git changing this?

How is this going to impact your day to day work flow?

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#125
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, two things (and I realize you aren't the person I originally replied to). 1. Your argument here is implicitly agreeing with my point number one. There are terms that would be considered too offensive and so the conversation is about where the line falls. We can't just say "let's not ever talk about whether a term is offensive" because there are some that we really wouldn't want to use, and so we should be talking…

My point is that master/slave actually conveys a relationship between two things. It was picked for technical use because of that. Naming something "nigger", even in a technical would do what, offend some other piece of code? If somebody chose an offensive name arbitrarily (like, say, "git"), I would understand the impulse. Though the former is fraught with specific and awful connotations towards a very specific grou…

To me master and slave is soemthing that shouldn't convey a relationship.

Slavery exists with the shitiness of our culture. That's not something that should be used to convey a relationship between things.

Abuse shouldn't be part of our technical language.

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#126

If I say "you are the master of your own destiny", is that offensive, because the word "master" is always offensive? I think that "main branch" sounds fine, it makes as much sense as "master branch", but I'm irked that people are always caving to word policing. Like, we're just going to scratch a whole bunch of words from the dictionary because someone somewhere is offended? The other day, people at my workplace were…

What's funny to me about your comment is that you actually chose a perfect example of the importance of critical thinking in how we discuss terminology.

The message behind the English idiom you chose is clearly one of self empowerment; /you/ are the master of /your own/ destiny implies independence, freedom, and agency.

In the context of git, and distributed systems more broadly, `master` is specifically chosen for its association with a power differential between one special entity giving the orders, and some collection of other entities taking the orders. In some DB systems, for example, the language is as literal as `master/s`. Even without "s" in use with `git`, there's a clear association with `master` being the branch that broadly holds sway above the other branches.

We chose symbols and metaphors to aid in our mental modeling of complex systems. I'm further amused by your own choice of "policing" to describe a push for cultural healing coming from a minority population. I recommend reading up on the history of policing to see why this metaphor is ill-advised.

> Like, we're just going to scratch a whole bunch of words from the dictionary because someone somewhere is offended?

This is a strawman; nobody is calling for this.

> The other day, people at my workplace were saying that expressions like "blind spot" and "falling on deaf ears" needed to be purged.

Based on your use of "policing" and "[scratching] from the dictionary" I'm wondering whether these folks literally said "purged" in their own language. But otherwise, cool, it sounds like they are exhibiting the positive human trait of compassion. If a disabled person tells me they'd prefer I don't use this idiom, I'd happily find another way of saying the same thing. What's the big deal?

> AFAIK, "blind spot" is not actually about blind people, it's a term related to driving and the angles seeing people can't see in without looking.

This isn't really how language works though, is it? When people are forging associations with words or phrases, they're not opening a webster's dictionary, but rather drawing on a complex web of cultural associations. A more extreme version of your argument here is that it's unreasonable to be rattled by the use of a swatstika in western culture, since the /original/ meaning behind that symbol was one of peace. Nobody would buy that. However, in certain east asian cultures, the symbol is still in use for more positive associations.

The specific choice of `master` as a symbol in distributed systems holds meaning due to its evocation of a power differential. Whether this is intentionally "bad" holds no meaning whatsoever. What does it say about us if we can't honestly hold some degree of empathy for someone who, affected by a violent history of subjugation and dominance, might not love the idea of using symbols chosen for their hierarchical power association?

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#127
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

right? maybe Op would care to give examples of software issues that have no social or political ramifications?

Pure algorithms, for one. I don't think that Merge Sort for example has had or will ever have any political / social ramification. On the contrary, I see that now the SJW trend is to attack IT in general and make a huge deal out of terms that (given the context) are perfectly fine. I wonder how much it will take before we'll have to assign pronouns to the connetors or to the USB cables

We already assign pronouns and gender to connectors. Seems like you've not actually worked in IT if you don't know that?

Pure algorithms have the capacity to change the world. Sometimes for the worse. An example of a pure algorithm with massive political and ethical considerations is crypto currency algorithms.

I think a lot of people here would've benefited taking a basic "ethics in CS" class.

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are welcome to be as unaccomodating as you'd like in your own projects, but if the people doing the work in projects such as git want to make this change that is their choice. what you're really arguing is that they should be accomodating to your opinion and not others'. "master" in a computer science context isn't named after master of ceremonies, but after the offensive master/slave meaning.

It's their choice, but I still don't like the precedent it sets. I don't really care what they call it, I just don't want this kind of thing to become an expectation, resulting in me either having to do a bunch of renaming work or risk being seen as some kind of ist.

I'd try worrying less about possibly having to do some menial work or being perceived as an ist, and instead try to understand why some might be offended by such terms or what impact their prevalence might have on our profession and wider society.

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#129
post #81
post #12

The branch name "master" does not have "golden master" or "master copy" roots: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/...

This should be the top comment to foster a conversation around sources we can dig up. The digital roots to word usages should be preserved as understanding is the first step to changing. I can’t casually read the bitkeeper “HOWTO” now without cringing at the word choice - it’s not that it didn’t age well, it’s that I used to lack empathy for its usage. I think treating this human relationship as a light hearted metap…

And let's remember slavery is still a major part of our lives. Even to this day.

Not making the word trivial is important in creating disgust and outrage, which eventually leads to policy changes to stop slavery happening right now.

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree that this specific change is insignificant, but the biggest deep learning conference has been renamed, after something like 20 years, because of this kind of pressure. Word policing has a bit of a 1984 feel to it. Some desire to control you and how you think by controlling which words you use, with new arbitrary words being banned all the time. Instead of actual change, we're focusing on the superficial…

Changing a default isn't banning a word. The conference was called NIPS. It's slang for nipples and a racial slur. It isn't like everyone was mature about it. There was an unofficial event called TITS. People wore shirts proclaiming "my NIPS are NP hard". Funny but hardly professional.

Isn’t the obsession with professionalism a hallmark of “anti-Blackness”?

/s I say this in jest but only because it’s incredibly easy to reproduce the absurdity of all this discussion, it’s all discordant and trivial

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