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"Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

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Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#181

Post by WJW »

haspok wrote: post #156
sremani wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Software Developers will follow the path of the Autoworkers of the 60s, once a high paid and esteemed profession which becomes a menial job with average pay. It is not that far either, I bet Software Developers do not have beyond 7 years for this to take shape and of course, those massive layoffs are just around the corner when remote works becomes the standard.

> Software development (...) becomes a menial job with average pay. If I had a cent for every time I heard this in the past 25 years... it started with the 4GL craze, at least that's when I started. And look where we are now. The truth is that software development is an inherently complex process. You can automate the menial parts of it (and you probably should), but can never tackle the core of its complexity. Writi…

That is also true of automaking though. There are some parts that are just hard and can't be automated away.

The argument GP made was that someone in the EU can write correct concurrent programs for ~60k/year (and feel they are makng great money) instead of the 100k+ you need to pay someone in the US. Software jobs are even easier to offshore than car manufacturing plants.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#182

Post by cambalache »

internet_user wrote: post #137
Dirlewanger wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can local wages (in a currency other than USD) be "pitiful", but food cost "the same" for the USD? These are incongruent. Locals wouldn't be able to subsist on those food prices. The USD has greater purchasing power, that's just a fact.

lower standard of living. people settle for less.

Yes, if your options are, A) Earning 2.5 USD/h . B) Starving. Guess which one you will take.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#183

Post by ghaff »

OminousWeapons wrote: post #56
9HZZRfNlpR wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just tell you live in another city?

I agree, this seems trivial to solve: get a UPS PMB in a high cost of living area and set up mail forwarding.

I suspect most of the people effectively going "just commit tax fraud" are mostly venting as opposed to saying something they'd seriously do. The fraud aside, I think it would be practically very hard to maintain the opsec needed to avoid clueing in your co-workers as to where you actually live--especially if it's in a different climate/time zone/etc.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#184

Post by ledauphin »

falcolas wrote: post #103
bumby wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a pervasive misconception that you are paid for how much value you bring. In a market economy, you are paid commensurate to how much you can negotiate. The value you bring (real or imagined) is part of that negotiation, but so are other factors. It pains me to see people get frustrated by this fact.

This 'misconception' comes from two big sources, IMO: 1) Leadership is paid for the value they bring. Primarily through huge stock grants as part of their multi-million dollar compensation packages. 2) Companies always discuss employee compensation, especially raises and bonuses, in terms of the value an employee has relative to their peers. So, it's no wonder that people believe that their value has something to do…

stock grants mean you're paid for the value your company _has_, not the value _you_ provide to your company.

For the vast majority of leaders, their input into the company's overall performance is vanishingly small.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#185

Post by [deleted] »

sremani wrote: post #125
lgleason wrote: post #89

If you live in the US and are advocating for this be careful what you wish for. It could lead to your 100-200K per year salary being cut to well below 100K to equalize across all engineers including those in low cost areas such as China and India.

The Software Developers will follow the path of the Autoworkers of the 60s, once a high paid and esteemed profession which becomes a menial job with average pay. It is not that far either, I bet Software Developers do not have beyond 7 years for this to take shape and of course, those massive layoffs are just around the corner when remote works becomes the standard.

[deleted]

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#186

Post by bumby »

jasonjayr wrote: post #136
simonebrunozzi wrote: post #112

> You should expect "equal pay for equal work" at your new remote job So naive. In an ideal, utopian world? Maybe it would work this way. Maybe. In reality, your compensation is a function of your negotiating power. Some people, in fact, manage to get the same pay even when working remote, because they're "highly employable". Others don't. And let me add: I almost agree that remote work shouldn't necessarily command…

Then companies should have no problems whatsoever with Unions? I mean, if a group of employees want to get together to amplify their negotiating power, then they should not stop that?

> then they should not stop that?

I think the opposite is true. The companies try to stop it precisely because it will weaken the company's negotiating position. I personally think unions have their place, but from an employers perspective there is little incentive to be pro-union (unless you are just arguing from a moral -- not pragmatic -- view).

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#187

Post by smabie »

PenguinCoder wrote: post #75
OminousWeapons wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, this seems trivial to solve: get a UPS PMB in a high cost of living area and set up mail forwarding.

Yeah, until they geolocate the IP address you're using to connect to the company VPN. Oops.

there are so many trivial solutions to that and you know it

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#188

Post by i_haz_rabies »

enriquto wrote: post #152
rich_sasha wrote: post #5

This, and similar moans, really misses the point. Employment is a social contract, looking for a compromise between two positions: * Employers want to essentially acquire a good (productive employee) for the best quality / price ratio. If a trained monkey could do the job for peanuts, employers would be happy. * Employees, and the society made up of employees, want stability, employment rights etc. as salary work is…

> Employers want to essentially acquire a good (productive employee) for the best quality / price ratio. If a trained monkey could do the job for peanuts, employers would be happy. This is true, but there's more to it. Employers typically make a product and they still need to sell it to somebody who is not a poor monkey. Employers also need a safe social environment so that their offices do not get burn by the angry…

If only they realized this.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#189

Post by x87678r »

jasonjayr wrote: post #136
simonebrunozzi wrote: post #112

> You should expect "equal pay for equal work" at your new remote job So naive. In an ideal, utopian world? Maybe it would work this way. Maybe. In reality, your compensation is a function of your negotiating power. Some people, in fact, manage to get the same pay even when working remote, because they're "highly employable". Others don't. And let me add: I almost agree that remote work shouldn't necessarily command…

Then companies should have no problems whatsoever with Unions? I mean, if a group of employees want to get together to amplify their negotiating power, then they should not stop that?

I'd think the opposite. When I'm physically with people I can form groups, picket offices, go on strike. If I'm a remote worker I'm much more easily replaced and there isn't much I can do about it.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#190

Post by matz1 »

davemp wrote: post #73
ukoki wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is there moral obligation to do your job well instead of let's say watching youtube and doing bare minimum not to get fired? No You can choose to do well to avoid being fired. You can choose to do well to chase a promotion. You can choose to do well because the work interests you. But you are not morally obligated to do anything, and if your employer is not very good at evaluating your work, then — like a man who b…

Who's morals are in question here? Both you and GP seem to be talking from an amoral perspective. To many people there is certainly a moral obligation to put in an honest effort and pay fair wages.

Moral is subjective. There also many people that their is moral obligation to not put honest effort or pay fair wages.
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