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Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

plough.com

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Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#41

Post by golergka »

thereisnospork wrote: post #38
golergka wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have sympathy for people who are gradually priced out of basic necessities in life, but living in a center of one of the world's busiest and most expensive cities isn't a necessity. If a person is insisting on making that choice instead of moving out, especially in a world that is moving more and more into remote work, well, it's their responsibility. Comparing this situation with a system without private property…

>Comparing this situation with a system without private property or even ability to rent, where apartments are leased by the state through your employer and you have no choice in the matter and have to wait years in order to move is a really, really long stretch. Why is the soft touch approach of government making housing unaffordable any different, morally?

Three points: about government, about unaffordability and about morality.

First, although government has some influence over a market, it's overall influence is much less than in a country without any free market whatsoever - so even if housing would be really unaffordable and it would really be morally bad, the government's responsibility for this still would be less.

Second, as I wrote in my comment above, the fact that housing is unaffordable in the centres of the most desirable cities is not the same as housing being unaffordable at all. Complaining about skyrocketing San Francisco rent prices is like complaining about expensiveness of designer clothes. If you need to shelter your body from the elements, you can always go to the noname retailer store at the mall and buy jeans for $10.

And third point is the most important point in my personal worldview, but the one that people usually don't agree with me on — that's why I base my argument on three points and not just this one. Freedom of choice and control over your fate is more important than just expected value of the outcome. A system that offers more degree of freedom and where your choice has more influence on the outcome is always more moral than a system that gives a better average outcome. So the ability to make that choice, between spacious apartment or location, or whatever, makes all the difference in the world in my eyes — and even if this system would have worse average standard of living the the communist one (which, by the way, is obviously completely the opposite), it would still be better, just for that.

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#42

Post by maest »

buran77 wrote: post #36
Dirlewanger wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't romanticize what, living near your immediate family? Why? It's how literally every civilization has done things so far. This modern American ideal of forced to be on your own at 18 to find yourself has only been around for 70 years at most, and while we've achieved unthinkable progress in that time as a society, it's wrecked havoc over the family unit.

> every civilization has done things so far. For lack of better conditions. You are arbitrarily picking this as an example of being right because it was done this way in the past. We changed so much for the better despite those things being done like that for generations. If you want a more technical analogy, this isn't about having a dedicated connection but about proper QoS. You can live in a mansion with family be…

> You are arbitrarily picking this as an example of being right because it was done this way in the past.

Off topic: the opposite fallacy is called "chronological snobbery"[0]. I guess this could be called "historical snobbery"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronological_snobbery

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#43

Post by maest »

yesenadam wrote: post #20
vinw wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have a look at some of the other articles on that site, it is some people's idea of Christian values.

Hmm yeah.. first one I looked at "The Case for One More Child: Why Large Families Will Save Humanity" seems pretty insane - too many extremely wacky sentences to quote here. https://www.plough.com/en/topics/life/parenting/the-case-for...

From the "about us"[0]:

Plough is the publishing house of the Bruderhof, an international movement of Christian communities whose members are called to follow Jesus together in the spirit of the Sermon on the Mount and of the first church in Jerusalem, sharing all our talents, income, and possessions (Acts 2 and 4). Bruderhof communities, which include both families and single people from a wide range of backgrounds, are located in the United States, England, Germany, Australia, and Paraguay.

[0] https://www.plough.com/en/about-us

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#44

Post by AtlasBarfed »

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #11

I lament the pressure for US nuclear families to fissure apart. It may not be overt pressure but it's consistent, delivered in countless expectations (do job|college and move out|away) and assumptions (gone yet?) My parents died when I was 14 & 21 respectively. Decades before, my dad moved my mom away so we grew up w/o any extended family nearby. When my first child was born, my wife and I were on our own - which wou…

The demographic bomb of a huge mass of people entering high-cost-healthcare old age and not being supported by enough young people being born (aka the entitlements pyramid scheme) seems to be exacerbated by the elderly potential grandparents not offering their services to make raising of grandchildren easier, especially in modern two-income cultures.

While obvious I was not around for previous generations of childrearing and can't comment as to whether the 1950s nuclear family represented a fundamental drop in childrearing support/labor by grandparents and extended family, being a recent parent and being around other recent parents, it does seem like grandparents and extended family aren't as helpful as it "feels" like they should.

Combine that with the massive generational war underway in America between college debt, healthcare costs, home ownership costs, and vastly reduced job market, it really does seem like we need fundamental policy to encourage having kids, starting with child care. Immigration can't serve all of the generational pyramid scheme.

A "retired people child care corps" would be a nice thing to try. Mental and physical activity is key to health in retirement, and childcare is an excellent healthy disruption to retirement. They especially could help out with unscheduled childcare needs.

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#45

Post by tokai »

maest wrote: post #43
yesenadam wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm yeah.. first one I looked at "The Case for One More Child: Why Large Families Will Save Humanity" seems pretty insane - too many extremely wacky sentences to quote here. https://www.plough.com/en/topics/life/parenting/the-case-for...

From the "about us"[0]: Plough is the publishing house of the Bruderhof, an international movement of Christian communities whose members are called to follow Jesus together in the spirit of the Sermon on the Mount and of the first church in Jerusalem, sharing all our talents, income, and possessions (Acts 2 and 4). Bruderhof communities, which include both families and single people from a wide range of backgrounds,…

Ah they are anabaptist. Thought that 'about us' sounded somewhat fringe. They hold some pretty extreme views on which relationships are okay/allowed, and how those relationships can be lived (no divorce or remarriage, only hetero, etc.).

They are the last people anyone should listen to on the subject of modern relationships and families life.

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#46

Post by macspoofing »

csomar wrote: post #40
macspoofing wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I heard for the best part of my adolescence and childhood that 'sitting in-front of a computer will not put food on your plate'. To be fair to your grandparents, large amount of screen time is not good for children and teenagers. And let's face it, if you were like a typical teenager, your screen time was largely devoted to gaming or other non-academic endeavors. I suspect when you have children of your own, you'll…

I think he meant he was working/studying CompSci and his grand-parents didn't understand what he was doing.

That's not quite what he said. He wrote: "I heard for the best part of my adolescence and childhood that 'sitting in-front of a computer will not put food on your plate'."

I interpret that to mean he was talking about his childhood.

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#47

Post by mattbk1 »

tony0x02 wrote: post #26
JKCalhoun wrote: post #7

I have become the self-appointed steward of the family photo archive after my aunt pulled a suitcase stuffed with photos out from under the bed in the spare room in her trailer. The suitcase's original owner, another aunt, "Aunt" Faye, had lived to be 103 years old but had never had children. And so I got to work scanning I believe over 500 photos — the earliest a tin-type from 1890 or so. Many were then cleaned up i…

I've been thinking about doing the same thing. Do you have any advice before I start?

You don't have to put your tree in Ancestry and pay monthly, especially if you have hosting somewhere. Webtrees is good software. If you are associated with a university, you may have access to an Ancestry subscription for free through the library. Set up a system for digital files and naming conventions on your local machine to back up any documentation you add to an online tree. Family tree software should all operate with the GEDCOM format, which makes it really easy to move around if you are dissatisfied (although objects like photos may be harder to).

When I started in high school 20 years ago, it was just a tree of everyone I knew I was related to. Then you get back far enough and have to ask people for help. My grandmother remembered dozens of names and dates, which got me further. Ancestry and similar free websites (findagrave.com) can fill in a lot. Newspapers.com helped me find a ton of obituaries and gossip column entries, which filled in even more.

It's only recently that I got into thinking about the "History" going on around my ancestors when they were alive, and that's been driving my interest for the last year. Person A lived in this place in the 1890s--what was going on there, and how were global events affecting them? Newspapers.com or another archive were very useful for this as well.

Although Ancestry and Newspapers.com are subscription, even one month lets you dig into and download as much as you want, so if money is tighter you can sign up for a single month and dedicate a lot of time to getting as much raw material as possible.

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#48

Post by [deleted] »

john_moscow wrote: post #6

Keeping connection with the older generations and learning from them is important. But I don't think, nuclear families are about denying that. It's more about having enough space and freedom to see each other when you want it, but keeping off each other's backs and not letting the differences between the generations ruin your relations. I've grown up in a typical 3-generational Russian family sharing a rather small a…

[deleted]

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#49

Post by Existenceblinks »

Dirlewanger wrote: post #27
john_moscow wrote: post #6

Keeping connection with the older generations and learning from them is important. But I don't think, nuclear families are about denying that. It's more about having enough space and freedom to see each other when you want it, but keeping off each other's backs and not letting the differences between the generations ruin your relations. I've grown up in a typical 3-generational Russian family sharing a rather small a…

Don't romanticize what, living near your immediate family? Why? It's how literally every civilization has done things so far. This modern American ideal of forced to be on your own at 18 to find yourself has only been around for 70 years at most, and while we've achieved unthinkable progress in that time as a society, it's wrecked havoc over the family unit.

I wonder why do you get downvote. Most of asian families are like this except for ones adopt western mindset, or the 1% down to upper middle class, they move wherever because they don't have to worry about family, money solves a lot of problem.

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#50

Post by PartiallyTyped »

macspoofing wrote: post #37
PartiallyTyped wrote: post #29

I come from South Eastern Europe and lived quite a bit with my grandparents, my parents are split though. The experience wasn't really good. Older people tend to have a very fixed and opinionated idea of what is good or 'correct' that does not match the reality. I heard for the best part of my adolescence and childhood that 'sitting in-front of a computer will not put food on your plate'. Guess who studied CompSci? S…

>I heard for the best part of my adolescence and childhood that 'sitting in-front of a computer will not put food on your plate'. To be fair to your grandparents, large amount of screen time is not good for children and teenagers. And let's face it, if you were like a typical teenager, your screen time was largely devoted to gaming or other non-academic endeavors. I suspect when you have children of your own, you'll…

I agree with your comment and that a typical teenager will probably devote most of their time in non academic or in gaming.

While I did game a bit during childhood and early adolescence, a large portion of it was spent socialising, I really did not socialise with peers during those years and that is a direct consequence of the overbearing and 'strictness' of the grandparents, so I socialised in the only way they couldn't control, through video games and the internet. Thank god World of Warcraft was a thing, it was my only social interaction that was deliberate.^1

My late adolescence, i.e. 15-18 was spent reading on light gaming, reading and watching documentaries. I also received a lot of expose on the hacker(not cracker) culture and that has shaped me a lot as a person, or perhaps it was inevitable since I was and still am the same curious child that I was back then.

PS. gaming has also helped me in many regards that are not perceptible to an outside observer, such as self discipline and setting goals and theory crafting. All of which have stayed with me and have probably made me a better scientist.

^1 I understand the difference between 'real' social interaction and 'virtual' interaction but I will take it over nothing.

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