Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions • Hacker News Board

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#301

Post by barnacled » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 1:00 PM UTC

Radim wrote: post #231

barnacled wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correlating 'a practical middle ground' with 'not addressing it'. I am also really not sure why you are bringing politics into this. I get the analogy but that's such an easy way to turn this into a divisive discussion that I think we should leave that there. You are also glossing over the consequences of an extreme response to climate change - an honest discussion talks about the cost as well as the benefits…

> in democratic countries when you take actions that result in severe economic consequences, people will just vote in a govt that reverses it If you're the type of person who believes they're saving humanity, you naturally don't fret over details like what do people want, or some rational cost/benefit analysis. You know better. The axioms are set and indisputable. Barnacled, you're quite articulate and reasoned in th…

Thanks. And no I'm probably not changing minds, unfortunately these issues seem to be quite naturally polarised. It reminds me of gun control somewhat - both sides having a highly emotive connection to their positions and feeling as if the opponent is somehow awful or evil to oppose them and thus making absolutely no forward progress.

I really regret the emergence of figures like Greta Thunberg, while heralded as a great advocate for action against climate change I feel she has actually been more harmful than good - she advocates an extreme alarmist position, often referencing highly debated timelines ('follow the science' doesn't take into account scientific dissent) which of course if/when they don't happen get ignored much like a doomsday cult.

It has resulted in this "if you're not perpetually panicking you're an anti-scientific climate denialist" mentality which I find really stymies actual practical discussion on the subject.

It's not helped by actual climate denialists pointing this out and thus tarring those like myself who absolutely believe in man-made climate change but who are pragmatists who realise the world is not quite so simplistic as good/evil and governments are not all-powerful gods who can magically change everything all at once.

I also think unfortunately there is a fair bit of anti-capitalism (the system that has lifted billions from poverty) that has snuck in, in the UK 'extinction rebellion' a very much Greta-esque protest group have openly advertised their views on this. Of course no comparison is made to other economic systems and their ecological track records...

It shouldn't be about ideals - 'we must cut carbon emissions to 0 no matter what', but rather 'what option is best in comparison to the consequences of another'.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

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Post by speedgoose » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 1:04 PM UTC

AntiImperialist wrote: post #293

speedgoose wrote: post #129

I'm so surprised to read so many people complaining on HN. I live in Oslo where electric cars are normal and everything is fine. It changes a few habits and these cars are not cheap brand new yet but I really don't see a problem. If it's going to be a challenge in 10 years, because they are still too expensive or it's too complex to install power plugs for example, it will simply be delayed. UK is very good at delayi…

No, everything is not fine in Norway. Norway invested a lot on Tesla and to help their investment, they removed taxes and tolls on EVs. Most of Norway's electricity comes from hydropower and they have been building wind farms lately. Meanwhile, Norway's entire economy basically relies on selling crude oil. So, it has been "donating" a lot to anti-oil interests in the U.S. so that the oil prices remain high enough for…

The VAT has been removed in 2001, the tolls in 1997. Tesla has been created in 2003, but they didn't sell much in Norway until 2013.

https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/

No one will deny that Norway's wealth is related to the oil industry, but no Norway is not relying on selling crude oil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Norway

I don't know about the funding's of anti-oil interests in the US, do you mean they are not funding competitors but companies that may benefit Norway ?

For sure China is doing well on the electric vehicle supply chain, but China isn't the only country making EV parts. Far from that.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

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Post by barnacled » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 1:07 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #254

barnacled wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment perfectly epitomises the 'climate crisis' extinction rebellion Greta Thunberg school of response to climate issues. Firstly - any response to climate change that does not include China and really India and other emerging economies too is more or less useless. Why should we deny such countries the benefits of full industrialisation? Secondly - while in some respects you are correct, looking at CO2 numbers…

"Firstly - any response to climate change that does not include China" China is actuslly on track to exceed their Paris commitments, while US and Australia are not

https://climateactiontracker.org/countries/china/

That concerns me as to the validity of the Paris accord then. They also have 1/2 of the world's coal capacity and absolutely no plans to reduce that.

Their emissions are almost double that of the USA, if people are to advocate for extreme action surely it should start with them...

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

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Post by robin_reala » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 1:20 PM UTC

Hamuko wrote: post #19

robin_reala wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Renault Master Z.E. is either 3.1t or 3.5t and comes in a bunch of configurations: https://www.renault.co.uk/electric-vehicles/master-ze/specif...

> The real life estimates of 75 miles in Summer and 50 miles in Winter also give an insight of how powerful these batteries are, reducing your need to be constantly charging your vehicle and allowing you to enjoy the ride! Isn't that pretty shit?

Li-ion battery capacity has tripled in a decade[1]. If that continues at the same pace (big if of course) then by 2030 the same van could have 150-225 miles of range.

[1] https://cleantechnica.com/2020/02/19/bloombergnef-lithium-io...

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

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Post by CalRobert » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 1:20 PM UTC

physicsguy wrote: post #136

CalRobert wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps we should stop letting individuals appropriate public space for storage of their private property, and charge market rate for the land used by parking, thereby encouraging people who are not car dependent to buy houses such as yours instead of demanding a public handout for vehicle storage? (The High Cost Of Free Parking explores this issue in depth)

I mean, I agree to some extent, but there's also no public transport service to the place I'm buying a house other than a single bus that runs twice a day for taking kids to school.

If there's no car storage and it's impossible to live without a car it might be better as grazing land, meadow, or similar.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

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Post by brigandish » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 1:20 PM UTC

rand49an wrote: post #234

brigandish wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because nothing much needs to change, which is (partly) what was so funny about the debate surrounding it.

Nothing did need to change, but since we've decided that we want no part of the single market or any regulatory alignment things will have to change unless we decide otherwise. Because of our own foolishness for 4 years, we have created a deadline for ourselves.

Maybe my point wasn’t clear. Very little will change (in the short term at least), the “deadline” is a misnomer, and whichever day finally becomes the real leaving day (as it’s been and no doubt will continue to be stretched out and kicked down the road) everyone will wake up and notice it’s much the same as any other, the histrionic cries coming from Twitter users notwithstanding.

As to “nothing did need to change” that quite clearly wasn’t the case or a winning vote for leaving wouldn’t be remotely possible. In any well supported political view there is some truth to be found in its suggestions and/or grievances, whether it’s ultimately misguided or not.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

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Post by CalRobert » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 1:22 PM UTC

johnday wrote: post #266

CalRobert wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps we should stop letting individuals appropriate public space for storage of their private property, and charge market rate for the land used by parking, thereby encouraging people who are not car dependent to buy houses such as yours instead of demanding a public handout for vehicle storage? (The High Cost Of Free Parking explores this issue in depth)

What about houses which are not within walking distance of amenities, and do not have room for off-street parking? That's a large proportion of suburban (or even urban) housing in the UK.

Buy or rent a place to store your property, or sell the stuff you can't store on your land? I've been talking about getting a piano but my wife has reminded me we'll need to extend the house first, sadly.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

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Post by CalRobert » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 1:24 PM UTC

Hamuko wrote: post #277

CalRobert wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps we should stop letting individuals appropriate public space for storage of their private property, and charge market rate for the land used by parking, thereby encouraging people who are not car dependent to buy houses such as yours instead of demanding a public handout for vehicle storage? (The High Cost Of Free Parking explores this issue in depth)

> Perhaps we should stop letting individuals appropriate public space for storage of their private property Are you arguing for getting rid of apartments?

Not at all! I just think yop've no more right to store your car on the public street than you do a hot tub, piano, etc.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

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Post by KaiserPro » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 1:30 PM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #104

physicsguy wrote: post #31

Many, many houses do not have anything other than on-street parking here. Since 2012 I've lived in 5 houses, and three of them had no driveway. I'm currently buying a house which has no drive way, with no way of fitting one. Apparently 1/3 houses have only on street parking. Unless they also provide huge, huge grants to rapidly implement dense onstreet charging, and fast, this is a pipedream and will end up getting p…

Perhaps we should stop letting individuals appropriate public space for storage of their private property, and charge market rate for the land used by parking, thereby encouraging people who are not car dependent to buy houses such as yours instead of demanding a public handout for vehicle storage? (The High Cost Of Free Parking explores this issue in depth)

i mean thats what "road tax" is for....

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

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Post by logifail » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 1:37 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #200

logifail wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Professor David King, former chief scientific advisor to the UK government, suggested a ban on petrol cars in 2002 from that article: "Britain should follow the example of Lombardy, a heavily-industrialised region in northern Italy, which is to ban the sale of fossil-fuel powered cars from 1 January 2005" Q: Did Lombardy really enact that ban in 2005? What happened as a result?

A longer article about that point - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/feb/02/oil.business1 (nothing about the outcomes though)

I've read that article a couple of times and am left with the impression that this "ban" may have been nothing more than a proposal by Mr Formigoni. Have I misunderstood?