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Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

reuters.com

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Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#151

Post by feralimal »

feralimal wrote: post #119

Where is the climate emergency? Can someone show me something I can see? Sea levels haven't risen. There are more small birds around where I live than when I was younger. Things seem to be doing ok. I am a skeptic and I'm very far from trusting experts. I don't want to be in a state of belief, I want to know. But I am put in a position that I must take it on trust that it is real. Is carbon dioxide bad? Surely, it wo…

Thanks for those posting data from NASA and NOAA. I know you will think that I'm being outrageous not to trust the data from those organisations, but I don't. I see all - ALL - the organisations as acting in interests that are not mine. I do not want to get into an anarchy conversation, but I think it is self-evident that governmental structures are about control.

What is requested in posting this 'scientific' data, is that I deny the evidence of my own senses.

What I would really like anecdotal evidence, preferably supported by photos. Personally, all the beaches I went to in my youth have water at the same level. I appreciate there is erosion, as there is also the depositing of new material elsewhere.

What can you give personal testimony on?

PS Do you see and accept that when you take the science data on trust, your are actually taking a religious position? The position is that the science is right, even if it doesn't cohere with your own senses. That is faith!

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#152

Post by CraigJPerry »

barnacled wrote: post #125
ako wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not dealing with global warming will also lead to "the kind of economic impact such drastic action would entail would likely run into millions of deaths, many of them far away in poorer nations"

Did I suggest not addressing it? It's entirely this dismissive attitude that harms the cause. This 'all or nothing' attitude that reminds me of the gun control issue in the US. Since you've ignored most of what I said there, let me reduce the surface area of the discussion and ask 1 thing: Let's assume the UK does everything the climate 'activists' request of them, and this results in an economic depression and unpre…

> Did I suggest not addressing it?

Yes, you said:

>> The correct approach is a practical middle ground where we try to do what we can

Then provided no examples of what we can do, in your opinion.

This isn’t a problem that can be solved by right leaning politics, this is the right’s blind spot. You’ll need some creative lefty types to sort this out and then you’ll need some efficient righty types to come in a clean up what they’ve designed.

The solution to this is not in the past, it is not doing something we already do in a better way (politics of the right), it is of a new paradigm (politics of the left).

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#153

Post by barnacled »

headmelted wrote: post #24
8draco8 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For years people will prefer non-electric cars. From a perspective of someone with his own driveway this is a nobrainer to have electric car but many people in EU live in apartment blocks and there is simply no infrastructure there to charge all necessary cars. I will be able to say that "no one should have a reason to drive petrol car" when 0-100 charge time will be around 15 minutes.

Or inexpensive (to install, not to use) and widespread charging becomes available in most locations. A normal 13A socket will charge my Leaf in about 12 hours. The 8 hours of charge I’d get from plugging in at a parking bay during work hours would likely be enough for most people, but we have no current infrastructure for billing people at that scale (although I imagine it could easily be developed, still a massive u…

For me I'd like the govt to address this and indicate how they intend to do so (most parking in the UK is on-street) - it's a huge infrastructure project.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#154

Post by ppf »

I have so many issues with this, as it is just greenwashing at its worst.

For a start - the latest EURO emissions regulations already make it practically impossible to sell a new ICE-only car. At this rate, ICE-only new cars will already be a rarity by 2030.

The "net zero emissions" is only if the electricity used to power those EVs is generated from renewable sources (and I'm not sure how much further installation potential the UK has for those sources). Unless we return to nuclear power (which brings its own debate), the overall lifecycle CO2 benefit of EVs and hybrids as they stand is minimal.

I also really dislike the blinkered focus on CO2 as the only variable to optimise. Sourcing the lithium and other minerals necessary for EVs is extremely problematic, and lithium battery recycling has yet to be proven at all viable. Some initial research also suggests that heavy demands are going to be placed on lithium reserves.

The net result of this is that manufacturers will make hybrids that just about meet the legislated "green" requirements, meaning all new cars will bring the worst of both worlds to the road. In the "green" new future of Britain's transport, everyone will be driving bloated hybrid SUVs.

Finally - for the "EVs are great because they only have one moving part!" crowd - how many cars have you sold or scrapped due to electronics faults, compared to ICE faults?

The only remotely sustainable form of motorised transport is an ebike (or maybe a bike with a tiny petrol engine), if you really take this whole argument at face value.

Edit: Nearly forgot (which is odd, given the actual enormity of this point) - the UK grid in no way can handle any significant increase in pure EV usage. There would have to be significant investment, and new systems manufactured, for this to even be viable. As I said, I suspect that the solution that will actually be used is hybrid cars.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#155

Post by imtringued »

barnacled wrote: post #83
LatteLazy wrote: post #30

This perfectly epitomises the uk (and the rest of the worlds) attitude to global warming: * it's a non binding commitment to do something but not for at least a decade * it's not enough even if it does happen * it will be too late by then (it probably already is for anything but drastic action) * it's totally at the whim of future governments who will be no more willing to spend the money/time/popularity than the cur…

This comment perfectly epitomises the 'climate crisis' extinction rebellion Greta Thunberg school of response to climate issues. Firstly - any response to climate change that does not include China and really India and other emerging economies too is more or less useless. Why should we deny such countries the benefits of full industrialisation? Secondly - while in some respects you are correct, looking at CO2 numbers…

You know, the middle ground is to cease all industrial CO2 emissions without investing into carbon capture. The extremes are to do absolutely nothing or to invest into enough carbon capture to undo all emissions since 1950.

Reducing emissions by 80% does help some but the problem is that global CO2 levels go down extremely slowly so that any human activity will always dwarf it. Given enough time you will still hit 4°C.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#156

Post by cabalamat »

ainiriand wrote: post #66
djmobley wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’ve completely missed the point of what is a very reasonable and forward-thinking signalling exercise. You cannot have sudden cliff-edges in policies (like banning the sale of new ICE vehicles) that would put thousands, if not millions of people out of jobs. You need to send signals like this to the market well in advance so they can invest and plan ahead.

There are many things that can be done, in this very same moment. The problem is the high cost in political resources that no one is willing to pay. Some examples: - Start by implementing a odd/even rule for license plates in big cities, even full bans on weekends. - Tax and/or de-subsidize the meat industry. - Incentivize the installation of wind or other renewable energies. Energies with no CO2 emissions, like nucl…

> Start by implementing a odd/even rule for license plates in big cities

Then rich people just buy two cars. This increases carbon emissions.

Also, people are pissed off, so the government loses the next election.

> Tax and/or de-subsidize the meat industry

The way to go would be to tax carbon emissions, and lay down a timetable where they taxes will get larger over time; then everyone has big incentives to change behaviour.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#157

Post by matsemann »

physicsguy wrote: post #136
CalRobert wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps we should stop letting individuals appropriate public space for storage of their private property, and charge market rate for the land used by parking, thereby encouraging people who are not car dependent to buy houses such as yours instead of demanding a public handout for vehicle storage? (The High Cost Of Free Parking explores this issue in depth)

I mean, I agree to some extent, but there's also no public transport service to the place I'm buying a house other than a single bus that runs twice a day for taking kids to school.

Then that would either create pressure to have more public transport, or affect the prices on the homes as people would prefer to live accessible. Changes don't happen in a vacuum, they bring other changes with them.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#158

Post by jonp888 »

feralimal wrote: post #119

Where is the climate emergency? Can someone show me something I can see? Sea levels haven't risen. There are more small birds around where I live than when I was younger. Things seem to be doing ok. I am a skeptic and I'm very far from trusting experts. I don't want to be in a state of belief, I want to know. But I am put in a position that I must take it on trust that it is real. Is carbon dioxide bad? Surely, it wo…

I think you've misunderstood what is meant when people talk about rising sea levels or temperatures.

Yes, this is literally what is happenning. But the effects are not ones you would ever directly notice, i.e. people suffocate because there is no oxygen, or that the sea level rises by several meters and suddenly the beach you used to play on as a child is underwater. Small changes have a massive impact on weather patterns and ecosystems.

If things are good in the tiny corner of the planet that you live in, then great for you.

Have you not seen the videos of open sea which used to be permafrost?

Have you not seen all the news story about forest fires, more and more every year?

When I was a child there was snow every winter. Now, it's years since we had snow, but a couple of years back we had temperatures over 30 C every day for a month, when the average is 25.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#159

Post by Ma8ee »

anovikov wrote: post #82
Ma8ee wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are way off. It took about 15 years to go from cities dominated by horse carriages to them being dominated by cars. It took longer in agriculture and rural areas. But the shift to electrical vehicles is trivial in comparison. Technically and economically we could easily prohibit new fossil fuelled cars by 2025. Sun and wind power is already much cheaper to install than coal powered plants, and once sun and wind p…

In the field of electricity generation, sure. Technology is there, apart from storage technology. But, given still higher costs and range anxiety, it will be very difficult to convince most consumers to buy electric cars. It will be most probably only generational shift: people born before ~1990 will still buy petrol cars till they die out, and younger generations will progressively shift, having different habits. It…

In Norway more than 50% of all new cars are electric. They are heavily subsidised, but it proves that it is only an economic question. I was born in the seventies. My next car will be electric. The only reason I’m holding of is that there’s no model that fit our needs yet (except an very expensive Tesla), but I expect that to change within two years.

For industrial heat they will use hydrogen produced from renewable electricity. See for example [0] where it will be used for large scale steel production.

All the technical and economical components for the shift are already in place. The only thing lacking is political will (and apparently knowledge).

[0] https://www.ssab.com/products/brands/docol/automotive-insigh...

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#160

Post by jphoward »

smilekzs wrote: post #126
echelon wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Start by implementing a odd/even rule for license plates in big cities, even full bans on weekends. > - Tax and/or de-subsidize the meat industry. And just like that, you've been voted straight out of office. Better luck next life connecting to the electorate. You can't do those things. Humanity is a distributed consensus problem. Climate change presents an interesting change in the fitness landscape topology ahe…

> odd/even rule for license plates Friendly reminder that Beijing has been implementing exactly that, then later a variant of that, since 2008. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_space_rationing_in_Beijin...

Exactly, the prototypical example has implemented it is one without democratic elections and so has no risk of being voted out of office.
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