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We can do better than DuckDuckGo

drewdevault.com

231–240 of 383 posts

Re: We can do better than DuckDuckGo

#231

> The search results suck Do they really though, for normal people that is?. Some of my searches today below, can't remember the exact terms I used. Mix of DDG and Google. 1) Walt Whitman, I wanted a basic overview of his work to satisfy some idle curiosity. DDG gave me his wikipedia page. Bingo 2) EAN-13 check digit. First result wikipedia telling me how to calculate it. I see it is simple and I have a long list in…

I use ddg often myself. Google does infer purpose better, and if someone is looking to buy something, it does well there too. Ddg is very good at info queries and the more one uses it, the better it is. What they could do is exactly what google did and that's to review those uses and improve. But what they have right now is solid, given just a tiny bit of work.

The biggest habit I had to break moving from Google to DDG was phrasing everything as a question.

If anyone is thinking of making the switch, you can always redirect your searches to Google by throwing a g! in the query.

Re: We can do better than DuckDuckGo

#232
post #226

> The search results suck Do they really though, for normal people that is?. Some of my searches today below, can't remember the exact terms I used. Mix of DDG and Google. 1) Walt Whitman, I wanted a basic overview of his work to satisfy some idle curiosity. DDG gave me his wikipedia page. Bingo 2) EAN-13 check digit. First result wikipedia telling me how to calculate it. I see it is simple and I have a long list in…

Yeah, all of these are quite DDG-friendly searches. It is my default engine and, yes, some results do suck quite consistently. I'm a bit lazy right now to remember all the problems it has, but some of the most obvious are looking up for news on recent events (especially something small, stuff that doesn't appear in reuters and these sorts of media) and trying to find out some basic stuff about local shops and such (o…

> Yeah, all of these are quite DDG-friendly searches...

This is exactly correct. Excluding poor local search results (which is understandable bc of the privacy aspect), Bing/DDG has trouble with long tale search query relevance (5+ word queries), and also finding results from small or obscure sites. The later is simply because Bing's organic index is not as large as Googles.

Bing/DDG's organic results are still very good, but they are not as good as Google's in the above specific circumstances.

Re: We can do better than DuckDuckGo

#234

Why couldn't several coordinating specialized search engines share their data via something like "charge the downloader" S3 buckets? Then you get an org like StackExchange who could provide indexed data from their site and the algorithms to search the data the most efficiently, GitHub can do the same for their specific zone of speciality, Amazon, etc. Then anyone who wants to use the data can either copy it to their…

There's Common Crawl for the crawling aspect, about 3.2 billion pages last time I looked. One of the issues with that kind of detachment of jobs is crawl data freshness.

I'm thinking more like search indexers with like 100k pages, in a specialized category like 3d printing or basketball. I can index things like those on my home PC, practically.

Re: We can do better than DuckDuckGo

#236

I tried to build something like this in 2007, together with a small band of nerds and geeks and Linux enthusiasts. It was called Beeseek. [0] I knew close to nothing about building a company or a project, or how a proper business model would have helped it. I was the leader (SABDFL) of the group, and unfortunately I didn't lead it well enough to succeed. We had some good ideas, but ultimately we failed at building mo…

In what ways does what OP describes remind you of your project? Just that it was an open source web search? One difference from what you describe is that the OP is specifically recommending against decentralization/federation, where it seems to have been the core differentiator of your effort. I don't think what OP is describing is quite what you are describing.

As in, to build a different kind of search engine.

Re: We can do better than DuckDuckGo

#237

I tried to build something like this in 2007, together with a small band of nerds and geeks and Linux enthusiasts. It was called Beeseek. [0] I knew close to nothing about building a company or a project, or how a proper business model would have helped it. I was the leader (SABDFL) of the group, and unfortunately I didn't lead it well enough to succeed. We had some good ideas, but ultimately we failed at building mo…

In what ways does what OP describes remind you of your project? Just that it was an open source web search? One difference from what you describe is that the OP is specifically recommending against decentralization/federation, where it seems to have been the core differentiator of your effort. I don't think what OP is describing is quite what you are describing.

I think that DDV was arguing against decentralization/federation for searching the index. Not necessarily related in any way to building the index (if the distributed nodes all just forward back results to central hub).

Re: We can do better than DuckDuckGo

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I want my blog to show up on your search engine, do I have to get it linked by one of those sites, or can I register with you? Will I be tier 1, or I think what I'd say in defense is that we've misunderstood what search engines are useful for. They're really bad at helping us discover new things. Your blog might be awesome, but it's not going to be easy for a search engine to tell that it's awesome. It's going t…

As an experiment, I searched “tech news aggregator” on both google and DDG. Neither listed Hacker News. Instead, apart from a few actual sites, most of the links were articles saying “top ten tech news sites” or links to quora q&a threads. It definitely seems that search engines can’t find new websites for people. Now they are just aggregating Q&A.

Yeah - this is sort of my thinking. For better or worse if you enter "discovery" terms, what you will get back is not the results of a "discovery" search, but rather an answer to the question "what are some websites that will help me discover X".

Re: We can do better than DuckDuckGo

#239
Hmm, I have been thinking about this more lately.

How to get quality results, and a sustainable, community-led search engine?

=== Contexts ===

A "search engine" such as Google is good at many things, and extremely bad at others. The main issue with it in my view is that it lacks context about what you are looking for. The main context you can ask for is "Videos", "Pictures", etc.

* Specifying context takes time, so it's OK for long searchs Google sucks at (find this specific article I read a while back). Take your time while you specify language, exact/fuzzy match, publication date, background color, author name or any number of things you know about your search.

* Some requests can be processed with instant answers, that's good news as it fits the open source model quite well.

* Lastly, the other requests. Some are asked like a question and might require NLP to sort trough. Quite hard IMO, it might get better but will still require compute power if done server-side. It's mostly: parse the question to find the context, and perform a contextual keyword search/instant answer.

* And those that aren't questions: "regular", keyword-based requests, that "just" require a big index and a big infrastructure to search it.

=== Hardware ===

Now, we are left with the cost centers: hardware. IMO, the only way to scale is to rely on the community and distribute things.

* Databases: if this is a community project, and not too latency-sensitive, the community can help by distributing them over a p2p network, even with a single source of trust.

* Queries, walking the database: delegating processing to untrusted third-parties is a bit more dangerous. Maybe allow each user to specify a list of trusted servers? Can be centralized and clients ask the network, though it might leak part of their search, depending on the index method. Could be client-side?

* Processing the answers: client-side, or trough any number of frontends (like searx).

* Crawlers: crawling the net isn't cheap. You could use one or multiple sources of trust. Domain-specific crawlers, like hinted at in Drew's post. Maybe crawl on demand or trough the user's computer (web extension that indexes as the user browses, and allows them to full-text search their history; share it or not).

=== Content ===

For some measure of quality, I find that websites that do not have advertisements offer better-quality content. That's likely due to conflicting interests. It would be great if the semantic web mandated disclosing revenue sources. You could downrank or avoid crawling sites with ads and/or Google Analytics, for instance. This could be abused to an extent if the service ever becomes popular, but heh https://xkcd.com/810/

Domain-specific crawlers would be nice as well.

=== Added value ===

To be adopted, the service needs to be better than the original in some ways. I think that a new search engine should not try to conquer the masses at first. Instead, find some people that are not satisfied with the current offering and court them. Currently, I think this isn't met by advanced search: exclude websites protected by recaptcha, only include websites that are less than X years old, no ads, etc.

Allow users to create their own contexts and easily switch them: bangs, tabs, date/time/geoip, etc. Have them create contexts dedicated to their activities: programming is an obvious one, but so is cooking, gardening, encyclopedic search, language usage/dictionaries, etc.

=== Monetization ===

At that point, I am not sure it can ever turn a profit? EU grants? Consulting? Help webmaster set up search on their own website? Sell desktop indexing software?

Well, I do have some ideas around content curation, but I am a tad reticent to share them here, and not sure they are more useful than the above.

Re: We can do better than DuckDuckGo

#240
For me, one of the weakest parts of ddg/google is finding niche content. Getting any results to a non-mainstream blog from anything but a direct quote is extremely hard. I always have to type HN/reddit to get authentic recommendations or opinions from people who have actual experience with the subject matter. Otherwise 90% of the results are from SEO-optmisezd sites that barely introduces the subject matter.
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