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2020 Mac Mini – Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test

anandtech.com

501–510 of 767 posts

Re: 2020 Mac Mini – Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I looked up multi-core Cinebench R23 and the AMD 2990WX comes in at 33,213 vs. 7,833 was given for the M1 in the article. Apple markets this as a "Pro" device for professional video editing. That's why I believe it is fair to take their word and compare it against my other options for a professional video editing rig. And in that comparison, which Apple has chosen itself, the M1 comes out woefully inadequate at a mer…

> Apple markets this as a "Pro" device for professional video editing. That's why I believe it is fair to take their word and compare it against my other options for a professional video editing rig. That's ridiculous. Threadripper has 8 to 16 times as many cores, runs on hundreds of watts of power and such a CPU alone costs the same as several Mac Minis. Them claiming you can use it for video editing doesn't mean yo…

He knows it’s ridiculous, but you’re going to see a large group of people who hate macs take this turn of fortune quite poorly. My hope is that it really puts pressure on intel to start firing on all cylinders but who knows? A MacBook Pro 16 with higher clocks and more gpu cores would be a really hard system to not buy.

Re: 2020 Mac Mini – Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test

#502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking about Photoshop 6 That's why I said "MacOS Sierra can't even run CS6" Technically in Italy if you bought a license and the manufacturer won't support it anymore, you can use it on another platform even downloading an illegal copy. As long as you have the original license. That's the same reason why you can listen to mp3s if you own the original record, you have the right to keep a copy and the right to us…

> He owns a license for Photoshop 6, payed for it and has no need to uograde, especially to the new subscription based licensing Sounds like the friend has a need to upgrade, and that upgrade is going to require new software. I don’t think this situation is Adobe or Apple’s fault, old stuff stops working at some point.

> I don’t think this situation is Adobe or Apple’s fault, old stuff stops working at some point.

Old stuff stops working due to deliberate design choices made on both Apple and Adobe's parts. Apple deliberately stripped Rosetta and 32-bit support from macOS, and Adobe is deliberately making it nearly impossible to use older versions of the CS suite on their end.

Meanwhile, I can run Photoshop 6 on Windows or WINE, and I can still run binaries that were statically compiled for Linux 20 years ago today.

Re: 2020 Mac Mini – Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test

#503
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happens to every giant eventually (and to countries or civilizations). They get climb to the top, and then they hold such dominant positions that they aren't forced to try. They get lazy or sloppy (and in Intel's case, I'm not suggesting the engineers were the sloppy ones... more likely strategic decisions from management and quarterly earnings per share-focused execs). Eventually they are dethroned, and some ne…

> In their industry it takes years or even a decade to see the fruits of your effort. So how long has Apple been working on this chip?

Roughly 10 years on this particular processor line: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple-designed_processors#A_se... (According to Anandtech, the M1 is a rough equivalent to the A14)

Re: 2020 Mac Mini – Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test

#504

Am I reading this right? Is the new mac mini competing with a Ryzen 5950X? The whole mac mini costs the price of that processor alone. This is insane.

Only in single threaded performance, which nobody actually uses for rendering. In multi-threaded, the Ryzen 5950X is at 28,641 while M1 is at 7,833. So no, the Mac Mini is maxing out at 27% of the Ryzen 5950X if you use it properly. And I was already friendly and used the M1 number for a native port, while in reality you'll likely need Rosetta and take a 33% performance hit.

But the Ryzen 5950X has 16 cores while the M1 has only 4 high performance and 4 low performance cores. So the Ryzen gets 4x multi-core performance with 4x the cores.

Re: 2020 Mac Mini – Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen benchmarks post 1st page? M1 at 7-8W power drain beats or just trails behind a desktop class $799 Ryzen 9 5950x at +49W consumption in single threaded performance. What did you expect?

That doesn't say too much. There is a single thread performance ceiling that all CPUs based on current lithography technology available just bump against and can't overcome. The Ryzen probably marks that ceiling for now, and the M1 comes impressively close against it, especially considering its wattage. But you cannot extrapolate these numbers (to multi-core performance or to more cores or to a possible M2 with a lar…

> What I read out of these benchmark numbers is: the ISA does matter far less than most people seem to assume.

This was my conclusion too. Does this mean, there is not much possibility of desktop pcs moving to ARM anytime soon? Perhaps, laptops might move to ARM processors, but even that seems iffy, if AMD can come up with more efficient processors (and Intel too with its Lakefield hybrid cpu)

Re: 2020 Mac Mini – Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test

#506

I hope Apple allows us to install the OS of our choice. The battery life is impressive but I refuse to not use Linux.

They have already stated they won’t: “We’re not direct booting an alternate operating system,” says Craig Federighi, Apple’s senior vice president of software engineering. “Purely virtualization is the route. [...]” https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/24/21302213/apple-silicon-ma...

But you can disable Secure Boot and boot whatever OS you want, so unless there's some other hardware gotcha it's not like someone couldn't get Linux running if they wanted to put the time in (which is a big if, considering there's no UEFI-ish helper like on the Windows ARM devices).

https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/macos-recovery-a-ma...

Re: 2020 Mac Mini – Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess, but the "whole concept of the machine" that I'm typing this on was to run Windows... 7 (I think?); that's a completely artificial limitation, as shown by running Ubuntu on it years after the hardware went out of support.

I'm not sure what the problem is, then. You have a device that does what you (or the GP) want, which is to install any operating system, tinker, etc. Is the worry that Apple and its practices will dominate the industry to the point that you literally will not be able to turn on your current machine and use it?

> Is the worry that Apple and its practices will dominate the industry to the point that you literally will not be able to turn on your current machine and use it?

I know you're joking, but I actually kind of am...

Apple has a tremendous amount of industry influence, just see removal of the headphone jack.

Re: 2020 Mac Mini – Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test

#508
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ELI5 please, how this change things for M1

There is more than one way to scale. Over the last decade, Intel had been pushing wider SIMD. Instead of making your cpu able to execute more instructions per cycle, why don't you make each instruction do more work. SSE packs four floats/ints or two doubles/longs into a single 128bit register and then you can do the same ALU operation to each lane. It works great on certain workloads. With AVX, Intel increased the si…

I'd note that both arguments have merit.

A SIMD is basically controller + ALUs. A wider SIMD gives a better calculation to controller ratio. Fewer instructions decreases pressure on the entire front-end (decoder, caches, reordering complexity, etc). This is more efficient overall if fully utilized.

The downsides are that wide units can affect core clockspeeds (slowing down non-SIMD code too), programmers must optimize their code to use wider and wider units, and some code simply can't use execution units wider than a certain amount.

Since x86 wants to decrease decode at all costs (it's very expensive), this approach makes a lot of sense to push for. If you're doing math on large matrices, then the extra efficiency will make a lot of sense (this is why AVX512 was basically left to workstation and HPC chips).

Apple's approach gambles that they can overcome the inefficiencies with higher utilization. Their decode penalty isn't as high which is the key to their strategy. They have literally twice the decode width of x86 (8-wide vs 4-wide -- things get murky with x86 combined instructions, but I believe those are somewhat less common today).

In that same matrix code, they'll have (theoretically) 4x as many instructions for the same work as AVX512 (2x vs AVX2, so we'd expect to see the x86 approach pay off here. In more typical consumer applications, code is more likely to use intermittent vectors of short width. If the full x86 SIMD can't be used, then the rest is just transistors and power wasted (a very likely reason why AMD still hasn't gone wider than AVX2).

To keep peak utilization, M1 has a massive instruction window (a bit less than 2x the size as Intel and close to 3x the size of AMD at present). This allows it to look far ahead for SIMD instructions to execute and should help offset the difference in the total number of instructions in SIMD-heavy code too.

Now, there's a caveat here with SVE. Scalable vector extensions allow the programmer to give a single instruction along with the execution width. The implementation will then have the choice of using a smaller SIMD and executing a lot or a wider SIMD and executing fewer cycles. The M1 has 4 floating point SIMD units that are supposedly identical (except that one has some extra hardware for things like division). They could be allowing these units to gang together into one big SIMD if the vector is wide enough to require it. This is quite a bit closer to the best of both worlds (still have multiple controllers, but lose all the extra instruction pressure).

Re: 2020 Mac Mini – Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test

#509

From the article's conclusion... "The M1 undisputedly outperforms the core performance of everything Intel has to offer, and battles it with AMD’s new Zen3, winning some, losing some. And in the mobile space in particular, there doesn’t seem to be an equivalent in either ST or MT performance – at least within the same power budgets." This is the first in-depth review validating all the hype. Assuming the user experie…

Chrome and 20-50 tabs, and my Intel Macbook can be used as a blow dryer. Assuming Chrome's power needs don't change, it seems that the only way to control for overheating an M1 is going to be throttling down - slowing everything down. Curious how M1 machines feel during day to day usage.

Re: 2020 Mac Mini – Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test

#510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel kind of grossed out, as a developer (and tinkerer) by how locked down Mac products are. It's not really your computer, you're just renting. Apple has decided that they know what you want and need better than you.

I prefer for the class of device the Air fits into (travel, work laptop) to have a nicely curated nix machine with working drivers out of the box. Apple has continued to improve on this by making this product class faster, more battery efficient, and* cheaper. There is a massive marketplace for tinkering on computers, from Arduinos to multi-GPU ML rigs. Trying to optimize for both classes of things seems like a fooli…

I hear this all the time from people "drivers working out of the box", but I've been running Linux machines for a decade now, and I've run into very few issues comparatively speaking. My work makes me use a MacBook for work, and it has a lot of significant bugs that are not getting fixed. The trick with Linux is to use a popular distribution. The one thing I will fully concede is that Linux laptops have poor battery life.
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