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Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

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Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#471

Post by ninkendo »

floor2 wrote: post #458
ninkendo wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is the big nefarious power in the background whipping the liberal mob into a frenzy? I get that you want to come off as an enlightened centrist here but you’re gonna have to be specific. What’s the liberal Koch brothers and what’s the liberal Tea Party?

George Soros and BLM? The funny thing is that "whipping the liberal mob into a frenzy" is a literal thing that happened this year that resulted in riots, looting, civil unrest and a full on "autonomous zone" in Seattle. To my knowledge, the only real harm the Tea Party accomplished was rolling back environmental/emissions regulations.

Just to get this straight, you believe the BLM movement was started by George Soros, but it grew out of his control?

I... hm. I don’t think that quite sounds right.

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#472

Post by cwhiz »

arshbot wrote: post #164
cwhiz wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It changes my evaluation of the claim, which is sourced by Greenpeace. In the long run I have no doubt that Greenpeace will have caused more damage than the Koch family. We could have clean energy right now if it weren’t for the decades of nuclear fear mongering, and the Koch family isn’t even opposed to nuclear.

Is this a troll? Comparing a single point on greenpiece's agenda to literally hundreds of millions of dollars Koch dollars to climate change deniers as a whole are simply incomparable. Just in case this is somehow contestable, let me highlight a few points * Climate change deniers oppose solutions that don't involve oil/gas/coal - this means nuclear power * Koch funding > greenpiece funding * greenpeice didn't start…

You can’t compare all of Koch donations to Greenpeace. You can only compare their anti-climate change donations.

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#473

Post by rurounijones »

pydry wrote: post #466
rurounijones wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or that we do not believe that full renewable grids are viable yet. Every single non-carbon solution (solar, wind, tidal) I have heard hand-waves away baseload and storage as something that will be solved soon(tm) by liberal application of technology(tm). Either by magical storage solutions or massive continental / intercontinental "smart" grids that are politically unviable (No country will give up energy security b…

There's a variety of non magical storage solutions which are already being used (pumped water storage, molten salt) but demand shifting and overproduction will probably handle the majority of the variability. Thermal storage heaters will make a comeback, industrial users will vary when they consume electricity and car chargers will be programmed to listen to the price and charge when prices are low/free/negative. A m…

We are just going to have to disagree on the wide-spread viability of the storage mechanisms and political / market reaction-time here.

However I hope I at least demonstrated that it is not always a case of "So they're still trying to make that argument now despite there being better options because they feel wronged."

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#474

Post by kazagistar »

crocodiletears wrote: post #278
Answerawake wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm worried that insurgent candidate like those in 'the squad' were only allowed to succeed as an olive branch to the left-populists for the purposes of maintaining a coherent anti-trump coalition. I don't buy that but happy to be proven wrong. I was following AOC's race closely before she won her election (any before anyone had heard of her). They went out of their way to work with and endorse her competitor. It wa…

I really do hope you're right about that. My understanding is that the squad came up with without the consent of the party establishment by running an exceptional ground game during their primaries, in districts that were safe blue, and had politicians who'd become too comfortable where they were at. They were an unknown threat before. Caruso-Cabrera did raise quite a bit of money to unseat AOC, but most of the endor…

The DNC doesn't have full throated machinery to win. They are specialized in losing and conceding ground. Their "machinery" is a huge number of corporations grifting a profit. They have lots of funds, but they also have lots of pockets to grease just to get some ads out or promote a few tweets or pay an army of strategic consultants that are paid massive salaries despite only having lost races.

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#475

Post by webmaven »

jkestner wrote: post #447
webmaven wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Koch is an honest libertarian, so his Deregulate All The Things efforts are accompanied by things like this. But. If you look at where he's been putting his money into supporting candidates, they are overwhelmingly Republicans that align with the former to the exclusion of nearly everything else. It would have been very VERY easy for Koch to have got bipartisan support for serious criminal justice reform if he had wa…

> That’s the main problem I have with libertarians If they’re with Republicans on reducing regulation, and with Republicans on social issues, they’re just called Republicans.

It's more like they are with Republicans on deregulation, and mumble mumble don't rock the boat mumble mumble on social issues.

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#476

Post by webmaven »

idoh wrote: post #376
webmaven wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Koch is an honest libertarian, so his Deregulate All The Things efforts are accompanied by things like this. But. If you look at where he's been putting his money into supporting candidates, they are overwhelmingly Republicans that align with the former to the exclusion of nearly everything else. It would have been very VERY easy for Koch to have got bipartisan support for serious criminal justice reform if he had wa…

Can you suggest some Democratic candidates that would appeal to a libertarian?

There is no shortage of D candidates that would like to end the War on (Some) Drugs, for example. Libertarians are very much on board with Decriminalize All the Things.

Curtailing domestic warrantless surveillance is another issue that many liberal candidates support.

Libertarians generally dislike military spending as much as they dislike social security, so progressive candidates that would shrink the DOD ought to be a good fit.

Any particular D candidate that I could suggest will also have positions that Libertarians don't agree with, which is part of my point. Disagreeing with conservative stances on non-fiscal/regulatory issues doesn't stop them from supporting those candidates, but the converse practically always stops them from supporting Ds.

It's almost as if they don't actually care about individual freedom and liberty at all, but just about their freedom to make a buck without anyone getting in the way of them exploiting workers, polluting the environment, etc.

Huh. Imagine that.

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#477

Post by qPM9l3XJrF »

abvdasker wrote: post #360
qPM9l3XJrF wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a registered Democrat and I voted for Biden, but the way the left seems to be incapable of considering the option of forgiving someone is very unattractive to me.

Some nice words he probably doesn't mean at the end of his life do nothing to repair the irreversible damage he has done to the environment. Nothing he ever says can wash the blood off the hands of a man who dedicated his life to preventing gun control, supporting the Iraq War and profiting from the military industrial complex. The only justice possible for a ghoul like Koch is the forfeiture of his assets and the bl…

>The only justice possible for a ghoul like Koch is the forfeiture of his assets and the blade of a guillotine.

Alright. I'm persuaded. Never voting for another Republican again.

Seriously what are you thinking? Flagged.

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#479

Post by qPM9l3XJrF »

bondolo wrote: post #323
qPM9l3XJrF wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of the Democrats not condemning mob violence until it started to hurt them in the polls.

How much of that was spin and framing against the Democrats or did anyone seriously believe that they were in favour of mob violence? New rule: if you don't condemn child rape every Monday morning then until you do it is assumed that you are in favour. Tiny furors like the "who's wearing an American flag lapel pin" are is too often motivated by political opportunity rather than any real question of where the parties…

>How much of that was spin and framing against the Democrats or did anyone seriously believe that they were in favour of mob violence?

Do you really think AOC et al are against it? I've seen so much left-wing justification of punching Nazis etc. that I'd be very surprised if there weren't at least a few Democratic politicians in agreement.

Ilhan Omar calls for complete dismantling of the Minneapolis police department around 1:30 in this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj3vdaC4F7c Yes, that's complete dismantling, none of this "redirect a bit of the funds" stuff which got retconned (watch the entire video for more examples). So I wouldn't put anything past her.

The Charles Koch was accused of "whipping up a mob" earlier in this thread, but whatever mob he "whipped up" was a very mild-mannered one which didn't light any fires. It seemed worthwhile to highlight the disparity.

I don't think this is a "tiny" furor. (As you illustrate, even if Democrats don't endorse violence, they are very willing to downplay it!) I recommend this video: https://twitter.com/mrctv/status/1297707698788728832

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#480

Post by abvdasker »

qPM9l3XJrF wrote: post #477
abvdasker wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some nice words he probably doesn't mean at the end of his life do nothing to repair the irreversible damage he has done to the environment. Nothing he ever says can wash the blood off the hands of a man who dedicated his life to preventing gun control, supporting the Iraq War and profiting from the military industrial complex. The only justice possible for a ghoul like Koch is the forfeiture of his assets and the bl…

>The only justice possible for a ghoul like Koch is the forfeiture of his assets and the blade of a guillotine. Alright. I'm persuaded. Never voting for another Republican again. Seriously what are you thinking? Flagged.

That you care more about some mean words on the Internet than the actions of a man like Koch suggests maybe "persuading" people like you is a waste of time.
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