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South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

thehill.com

291–300 of 521 posts

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#291
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The state" refers to the governing apparatus, not a particular state within the union. I understand there may be some confusion if you are not familiar with the US government and typical ways of talking about it.

https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-10/ Please cite me where the power to enact a requirement to wear masks is explicitly granted to the federal government. I'll wait.

You are being unpleasant.

But even short an ability of the federal government to unilaterally require masks, it can exert a lot of soft power on the states by having a unified and full-throated position.

The CDC, OSHA, federal funding incentives, and just having persuasive leadership that doesn't politicize compassionate mask wearing.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#292

My wife and I just moved from Orange County, CA to Detroit, MI this last August. We decided to drive the northern route. Heading through Vegas, Utah, Yellowstone and Montana. Then onward through the plains of North Dakota and Minnesota. Turning north we entered Wisconsin and finally the UP (Upper Peninsula) of Michigan. After a few days exploring we turned south to Detroit. In Vegas the concern for masks started to w…

Meanwhile, here I am in the "anarchist jurisdiction" of Seattle and 90%+ of the people I see are wearing masks, socially distancing, and taking the scientific authorities seriously.

I'm in Seattle too. The local health guidelines suggest that it's safe to:

1. Put on a mask before going outside 2. Stroll to your local favorite restaurant 3. Get a table indoors 4. Remove the mask 5. Socialize

Some rural citizens are skipping steps 1 and 4, but Science only confers protection from covid when all the steps are followed.

This sort of pandemic theater is why cases are at an all-time high here. The 90%+ are not being very well served by their scientific authorities.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if 10 years from now we discover that wearing a mask was a completely pointless endeavor .... the cost of wearing a mask is SO LOW that it is worth doing it. But it is scientifically proven to limit the rate of the spread, which is the least I can do to protect myself and those around me. I don't care if I get covid ... I don't think it will kill me based on my vitals. However, we don't fully understand the long…

The cost is the alarming sight, causing the economic crisis. In Santa Clara/CA so far only some 400 people died of COVID-19, i.e. about 2 a day, while some 40 a day die of unrelated causes. Yet, if you step outside, you might think the Zombie apocalypse is happening.

There are two factors involved that are similar, but not managed the same way.

1. Hospital Capacity: Economic shutdowns have been largely to manage Hospital capacity since if all the hospitals in an area are overwhelmed, the death toll will grow since patients suffering any kind of acute issue will have nowhere to turn

2. The spread of disease (COVID-19): This is what is trying to be controlled by encouraging people to perform effective steps to limit the spread (with a second-order effect of reducing demand on the hospital) -- that is, if less people get the disease, less people die from the disease, and we can get a vaccine program and have an overall lower casualty rate from COVID-19.

Both of these strategies do not have to be employed.

For example, in the case where there's no effective vaccine in the near future, it might make sense to simply ensure that everyone gets infected at a slow enough rate that Hospital Capacity is not critical. This is because with this pandemic, over a long enough timeline (and again, without an effective vaccine), everyone will get the disease eventually. So in this scenario you are simply concerned about managing hospital capacity, and your tools are masks, social distancing, and economic shutdowns -- no need to track the infection, etc. Some locales are using this approach, and shutting down hot-spots without too much focus on how the disease is spreading, but most developed countries are tracking the spread much more closely and can be more targeted with the guidance. This was likely the initial thinking of many people, and why a shutdown did not occur before disease had spread widely.

On the other hand, if you assume a compliant population a near total economic shutdown to for a short period of time, with strict social distancing and containment measure to ensure that there is no spread, along with no new individuals, and a strong track-trace policy, then you can eradicate the cases with minimal masks. This is basically what China did, as far as I understand it. This was the initial model other locales tried to implement when they went into "Lockdown"-mode, but were not as successful, also -- again, from my limited understanding as a lay person.

On a third hand, if we assume we are going to have an effective vaccine in the near future (which was FAR from certain when this whole thing played out) it makes more sense to do both in concert -- that is, primarily limit the total number of people infected (masks and social distancing; this is because the long term outcomes of people afflicted with COVID-19 are unknown, limit that unknown risk) with a secondary task of managing Hospital capacity to prevent things from becoming catastrophic. This is sort-of where most locales have landed at the moment: Mandate masks (slow the spread) and shutdown hot-spots as they are detected (manage hospital capacity).

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#294
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-10/ Please cite me where the power to enact a requirement to wear masks is explicitly granted to the federal government. I'll wait.

According to the Bar Association, the Commerce Clause and Public Health Service Act is what you're looking for. https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/publications/yourab...

This article makes no claims on the constitutionality of such an act.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the fact of the matter is that if we all would’ve taken this seriously and shut everything down, we would be through the worst of it already This isn't supported by the available evidence. Spain was forbidding people from leaving their homes except for essentials, and now they're worse off than the US in terms of hospitalizations and deaths. Many other countries also had stronger lockdowns that have not spared them f…

> Spain was forbidding people from leaving their homes except for essentials, and now they're worse off than the US in terms of hospitalizations and deaths. That second wave has started months after Spain lifted all those restrictions.

Yes, that is exactly the point. Lockdowns don’t make all of this go away sooner, because as soon as you lift them, the outbreak resumes.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#296
post #273
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of it is due to private gatherings without masks, gyms, and maybe bars and restaurants. From what I can tell (I'm just staying home), people maybe did backyard gatherings when it was nice enough out, but moved indoors and that's gotten a lot of people sick.

> Much of it is due to private gatherings without masks, gyms, and maybe bars and restaurants. Prove it. When cases go down, it’s because of masks. When they go up in the same place, it’s because people suddenly stopped wearing them , but no proof is provided for either assertion.

I think we can all agree (and I don't have to prove) that if nobody would ever meet anyone outside their home there would be 0 infections. So that would be the ideal. We could have states just mandate very strict shelter in place. Would you like that?

Probably not, in which case we have to allow people to get outside their homes. When we do that we come up with rules to try to minimize infection rates, distance and mask wearing is supposed to help with that. Is your argument that mask wearing has 0 impact on COVID19 spreading rate?

This article seems to go over a number of studies showing correlation between mask wearing and lower death rates: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

But if mask wearing isn't helping at all with infectious diseases like COVID19, why are health experts always wearing them? It's a lot more comfortable to not be wearing any mask so they could do that instead. They'd have the data and the skills to determine if it helps or not, much better than we would.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#297
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if 10 years from now we discover that wearing a mask was a completely pointless endeavor .... the cost of wearing a mask is SO LOW that it is worth doing it. But it is scientifically proven to limit the rate of the spread, which is the least I can do to protect myself and those around me. I don't care if I get covid ... I don't think it will kill me based on my vitals. However, we don't fully understand the long…

A counter point to consider - and one that I consider to be a little more rational - is that - what if in the messaging to get people to wear masks - we have inadvertantly encouraged riskier behavior? As an analogy, I'd explain it like this. What if in the process to encourage people to wear seatbelts, drivers who did that then felt entitled to drive even faster thus resulting in even worse accidents and more frequen…

I don't know about seat-belts or how this relates to mask wearing, but I was astonished when I learned that my car insurance (some ten years ago) was unwilling to give me a lower rate based on my car being equipped with ABS. Their stated reasoning was, that ABS led to riskier driver behavior and no net safety gain.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually the state governments that's at fault here. Not the specifically the people. Let me tell you I was in back-country Oregon recently, some of the MOST republican places within Oregon, not going to name drop the county. Anyway, the Oregon state government is very much democratic (cause you know Portland). But because of that, even the republican counties are under a mask order. And the extremely red counti…

Grocery stores even are employing someone to just stand there and either hand a cheapy surg. mask or tell them to put one on. In the more advanced countries, such as Thailand, this is automated.[1] The store entrance gate won't open until the automated face scan has seen a mask. Hikvision has a mask and temperature detection system integrated with their face recognition systems.[2] If you already have a face recognit…

> In the more advanced countries, such as Thailand, this is automated.

Having facial recognition everywhere isn't necessarily considered "advanced" in all circles. Technically, perhaps. Ethically? Not so much.

Facial recognition could be put everywhere in the US. Its primarily the political, legal, and social culture that prevents it, not the access to sufficient technology.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#299

My wife and I just moved from Orange County, CA to Detroit, MI this last August. We decided to drive the northern route. Heading through Vegas, Utah, Yellowstone and Montana. Then onward through the plains of North Dakota and Minnesota. Turning north we entered Wisconsin and finally the UP (Upper Peninsula) of Michigan. After a few days exploring we turned south to Detroit. In Vegas the concern for masks started to w…

It's actually the state governments that's at fault here. Not the specifically the people. Let me tell you I was in back-country Oregon recently, some of the MOST republican places within Oregon, not going to name drop the county. Anyway, the Oregon state government is very much democratic (cause you know Portland). But because of that, even the republican counties are under a mask order. And the extremely red counti…

You know who else has the power to lead people and states? The federal government. Almost like they were empowered specifically for this kind of scenario.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#300
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, here I am in the "anarchist jurisdiction" of Seattle and 90%+ of the people I see are wearing masks, socially distancing, and taking the scientific authorities seriously.

I'm in Seattle too. The local health guidelines suggest that it's safe to: 1. Put on a mask before going outside 2. Stroll to your local favorite restaurant 3. Get a table indoors 4. Remove the mask 5. Socialize Some rural citizens are skipping steps 1 and 4, but Science only confers protection from covid when all the steps are followed. This sort of pandemic theater is why cases are at an all-time high here. The 90%…

Yeah, the whole eating and drinking in public places inside is definitely not a good idea with respect to Covid.
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