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China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

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Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#61
post #19
post #4

It turns out that many of China's territorial claims in the South China Sea are simply the result of errors in translations and cartography. They have no legitimate basis in law or history. http://cimsec.org/chinas-claim-spratly-islands-just-mistake/...

PRC SCS claims is based on Cairo Declaration in 1943, San Francisco Treaty in 1951, where illegal Japanese conquests including SCS features went to ROK which went to PRC after PRC replaced ROK in UN. These are legally inherited territorial claims recognized postwar but conveniently omitted in all the garbage propaganda reporting for current geopolitics. It in terms of legitimacy, no one in the region has stronger cla…

Can you backup your claim that those treaties constitute a legal claim by China?

What I found about the Cairo Declaration:

> The Cairo Declaration stated that “all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, including Manchuria, Formosa, shall be restored to the Republic of China.” The Spratlys and the Paracels were not seized or stolen by Japan from China. Japan seized the Paracels from the French and the Spratlys were unoccupied by any state when Japan established a submarine base in Itu Aba in 1939. In fact, in the 1943 China Handbook, an official publication of the Republic of China delineating China’s territory, China did not claim the Spratlys. The Cairo Declaration stated that “Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed.” The Spratlys and the Paracels fall under these “all other territories,” which were not awarded to any state in the Cairo Declaration.

What I found about the San Francisco Treaty:

> China, under the People’s Republic of China ruled by the Communists, denounced the 1951 San Francisco Peace Teary as illegal since China was not represented at the Peace Conference. The USSR’s motion to award the Spratlys and the Paracels to China was overwhelmingly rejected by the Peace Conference by a vote of 64 to 3, with one abstention.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#62
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>will not treat their fishing vessels in the same way. Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, Japan, Taiwan, South/North Korea have all seized Chinese fishing vessels before. Some recently. These countries also regularly seize each other's illegal fishing boats, the entire region is an overlapping web maritime disputes. The difference is China is a juggernaut, larger in population and economy than all other claim…

> It will do so with ~2% of GDP in defense spending, basically what Trump wants NATO members to comit. This "2%" figure is a top contender for "the biggest load of bullshit in politics" award, I (as a German, if it's relevant) hate it with a passion. The reason is simple - all this target does is incentivize waste and disincentivize control and oversight. After all, if the only thing that's compared is how much money…

Yes, it never ceases to amaze me that the same political parties who generally claim to be the most opposed to government waste are most enthusiastic to measure military strength by amount of money / percentage of GDP spent.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It will do so with ~2% of GDP in defense spending, basically what Trump wants NATO members to comit. This "2%" figure is a top contender for "the biggest load of bullshit in politics" award, I (as a German, if it's relevant) hate it with a passion. The reason is simple - all this target does is incentivize waste and disincentivize control and oversight. After all, if the only thing that's compared is how much money…

Yes, it never ceases to amaze me that the same political parties who generally claim to be the most opposed to government waste are most enthusiastic to measure military strength by amount of money / percentage of GDP spent.

Obviously they don't consider that spending a waste.

The NIH, NOAA, CDC, National Science Foundation, EPA, food stamps, farm subsidies, low income housing, and anything Obama ever cared about are obviously just wasting taxpayer dollars. But we need those extra aircraft carriers.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#64
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the whole orange website, just two people who happen to agree in shared ignorance. You shouldn't take that to mean that everyone here thinks the same.

It's not "yellow peril" or "Orientalism" to criticise China or its foreign policy. It is legitimate to criticise a nation state based on their behaviour, foreign policy, etc. I criticise the US or "western" countries plenty, just not on the top of expansionism in the south China Sea. My point above is that no power is doing anything of substance about China expanding and laying a tacit claim out to the nine dash line…

> It's not "yellow peril" or "Orientalism" to criticise China or its foreign policy.

I did not use "yellow peril" or "orientalism", I used "ignorance". I'm not opposed to criticism of China or it's foreign policy, I'm opposed to getting the facts wrong.

You say that "no power is doing anything of substance about China expanding and laying a tacit claim out to the nine dash line", which I assume means you are ignorant of the many cases of other countries' coast guards attacking Chinese fishing boats (as linked in other comments), Vietnam subsidizing fishers specifically for fishing in Chinese-controlled but Vietnamese-claimed waters (as mentioned in the article) or the US Navy's "freedom of navigation" operations (also mentioned in the article).

There's a narrative circulating in right-wing Chinese blogs that the US plans to use its network of military bases and client states across the western Pacific to neutralize the Chinese fleet while simultaneously launching a land-based invasion across the Korean peninsula and amphibious assaults all along the coast. Hopefully you realize that that's quite an absurd scenario and just a transparent excuse to call for greater military spending.

Similarly, it's absurd to claim that there's no opposition to Chinese expansionism, while the overall media consensus is one of opposition and there are many instances where such opposition manifested as actual physical violence.

Talking up how strong your enemies are and how no one can stop them is one of the oldest tricks in the military propaganda book. Julius Caesar wrote about how strong and dangerous the Gauls were before he went and conquered all of their territory.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#65
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good analysis. Realistically, no entity, government or otherwise is taking any concrete steps to say no to China in the south China Sea. Doing "drive bys" is hardly actual action, like say dismantling a Chinese base made in international waters. THAT would be concrete action, and I bet they would get all upset but ultimately do nothing (unless it's too Australia, in which case they'll find some other product to ban).…

Sad that yellow peril alarmism with no basis in reality is what counts as "good analysis" when the orange website talks about China.

Orange Man Bad! Oh, and Orange Website Bad!

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#66
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The reason they continue to do this is because they know without doubt other Countries will not treat their fishing vessels in the same way. There is zero consequences for their actions and they have zero reason to change their policy. This paragraph completely decontextualizes what's going on and makes it sound like the Chinese state is just rolling around blowing up ships for fun. In reality, fishing in internatio…

>This is just orientalism I've spent time in Vietnam and China, both of which are in the orient and as far as I can see this is a case of China being a bully and using aggression to grab territory off Vietnam and similar. I'd be more anti bully than anti orient.

Does that mean you agree with

>You might say "the consequence is that they look bad", but they don't, at least not to the people they care about - mainlanders. They own and/or control the news media in mainland China. To produce an anti-CCP news piece in China is suicide for these companies.

Because that claim is wrong. Remember the cute stories earlier this year about Chinese internet users using various methods to circumvent censorship of a Renwu interview with Dr. Ai Fen: https://qz.com/1816219/chinese-internet-rallied-to-save-a-ce... ? Renwu is a Chinese magazine, publishing that interview hasn't been suicide for them.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#67
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>will not treat their fishing vessels in the same way. Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, Japan, Taiwan, South/North Korea have all seized Chinese fishing vessels before. Some recently. These countries also regularly seize each other's illegal fishing boats, the entire region is an overlapping web maritime disputes. The difference is China is a juggernaut, larger in population and economy than all other claim…

> It will do so with ~2% of GDP in defense spending, basically what Trump wants NATO members to comit. This "2%" figure is a top contender for "the biggest load of bullshit in politics" award, I (as a German, if it's relevant) hate it with a passion. The reason is simple - all this target does is incentivize waste and disincentivize control and oversight. After all, if the only thing that's compared is how much money…

If Germany was actually making a contribution to the common NATO defense then I doubt anyone would quibble about whether they were complying with the 2% target or not. The real problem is that the German military has been reduced to a jobs program and is no longer combat effective. Do they have any working submarines now or are they still all broken? How many aircraft are actually mission capable today?

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#68
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PRC SCS claims is based on Cairo Declaration in 1943, San Francisco Treaty in 1951, where illegal Japanese conquests including SCS features went to ROK which went to PRC after PRC replaced ROK in UN. These are legally inherited territorial claims recognized postwar but conveniently omitted in all the garbage propaganda reporting for current geopolitics. It in terms of legitimacy, no one in the region has stronger cla…

Can you backup your claim that those treaties constitute a legal claim by China? What I found about the Cairo Declaration: > The Cairo Declaration stated that “all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, including Manchuria, Formosa, shall be restored to the Republic of China.” The Spratlys and the Paracels were not seized or stolen by Japan from China. Japan seized the Paracels from the French and the Spr…

You can look up the various legal arguments China uses to assert their claims, but this is a fairly impartial analysis of positions from all parties [0]. Significantly, it includes reactions from various international observers around the time, uninfluenced by current geopolitical tensions. Security council countries like Britain, USSR who outright recognize Chinese sovereignty (ROC or PRC) over Paracel, Spratly France who dropped their claims after French document supported Chinese claims, US who remained neutral (yup, US neutral). Other countries that supported Chinese claims: Germany, Japan herself:

>The Japanese accepted the terms of surrender set by the Potsdam Declaration, including the terms of the 1943 Cairo Declaration, which provided that Japan would return all Chinese territories that it had seized from China. Since Nansha and Xisha were occupied by Japan during World War II, they were returned to China. Thus, both the 1951 San Francisco Japan Peace Treaty and the 1952 Sino-Japan Treaty stipulated that Japan renounce all title and claim to Taiwan (Formosa), Penghu (Pescadores), the Parcel Islands and the Spratly Islands. Since then, Japan has not expressed any new position on China's claim of sovereignty over the islands in the South China Sea.

Claimants who recognize Chinese claims: Indonesia, North vietnam

Claimants who didn't: South Vietnam, Malaysia, PHILIPPINES

Philippines emphasized since what you found/quoted is basically the Philippine legal position from by their chief justice, Antonio Carpio from last month. Obviously every country have their own biases, arguments for nullifying others claims and again they are _legitimate_ arguments. But the more detached analysis and literature, like this analysis from the 90s before everything popped off, gives greater credence Chinese position. Just to pick on Philippines claims on Scarborough Shoal, based off terra nullius, from the mid 50s, i.e. Filipino claims to be first state/peoples to occupy the shoal, which is... well fantastically absurd since ROC claimed the shoals in early 1900s, which predates Philippines as a sovereign state. They're so late to the party that their argument is... China (and Vietnamese) claims that predates even San Francisco treaty just don't exist. Although this line is interesting, I can't find info on it anywhere.

> USSR’s motion to award the Spratlys and the Paracels to China was overwhelmingly rejected by the Peace Conference by a vote of 64 to 3

From context, speculating USSR probably wanted to award it to PRC... which doesn't invalidate the notion that ROC claims were recognized, as reflected by international reactions at the time, by who would eventually represent China, which later passed to PRC after in 71. Anyway, the Filipino position is stupid, legitimate, but stupid. Just like some of the new Chinese straight baseline arguments in response to PCA ruling. Look it up. Insert Arrested Development meme on the absurdity of maritime law. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, each party is motivated to find minutiae to argue their case, geopolitical interests will shift positions (lol at US neutrality). Ultimately, IR is more rule by law than rule of law. Everyone has legal arguments, some older and better than others. Everyone also has a navy, some bigger and more modern than others. SCS dispute is going to be solved by 9/10th possessions and naval tonnage. There's too much on the line for any other way.

Edit, to add, since I just connected Carpio dot to point about Sino-Philippine energy exploration I made in another comment: In Philippines case, Carpios letter was followed up by Philippine declaring they would start oil exploration in SCS. The timeline suggesting Philippines asserting itself... but later revealed to be with Chinese blessing [1]. That's SCS dispute politics.

[0] https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?ar...

[1] https://amti.csis.org/a-philippine-china-deal-on-joint-devel...

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#69
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "yellow peril" or "Orientalism" to criticise China or its foreign policy. It is legitimate to criticise a nation state based on their behaviour, foreign policy, etc. I criticise the US or "western" countries plenty, just not on the top of expansionism in the south China Sea. My point above is that no power is doing anything of substance about China expanding and laying a tacit claim out to the nine dash line…

> It's not "yellow peril" or "Orientalism" to criticise China or its foreign policy. I did not use "yellow peril" or "orientalism", I used "ignorance". I'm not opposed to criticism of China or it's foreign policy, I'm opposed to getting the facts wrong . You say that "no power is doing anything of substance about China expanding and laying a tacit claim out to the nine dash line", which I assume means you are ignoran…

> I'm opposed to getting the facts wrong

I have not got the facts wrong.

I said "no power is doing anything _of substance_ about China expanding" and that is a _fact_.

Coast guards attacking illegal Chinese fishing boats is a good step for illegal fishing but it is laughably small if it's meant to rebuke China for installing military bases on islands into the contested waters.

I don't see how Vietnam subsidizing fishers is relevant.

The US and other Navy forces are _entitled_ to sail through international waters by definition. Calling it "freedom of navigation" and doing _nothing_ else is on those trips is, for want of a better word, "cute".

None of these are acts _of substance_.

The _fact_ is that no power wants to poke the bear.

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not saying those nations are wrong to avoid a substantial act. I'm not even saying China occupying those islands is wrong, nor am I saying it's right. I'm simply saying that no power has or will stand up properly to China. The govt / armed forces / press / etc don't like the expansion but they're not actually going to do anything about it.

As a result, in a couple of decades, the frog will be slowly boiled, and eventually the whole region will be assumed to be China's. That's all I'm saying.

> Similarly, it's absurd to claim that there's no opposition to Chinese expansionism

If you mean me, I made no such claim.

I simply said there have been no acts of substance to demonstrate this opposition.

I dearly wish I could read and speak Chinese. I haven't read the blogs you speak of (so I'll accept I'm ignorant on that), but with that said, is it really a shock that right wing blogs in country A says that nefarious forces in country B or C are itching to invade them? I see that ridiculous narrative often. Americans / Australians / insert-preferred-power-here thinking China will invade. It's tiresome and repetitive. For all of China's expansionist angst and insecurity-driven surveillance, I don't think of it as a warmongering nation.

I didn't follow your point about Caesar.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#70
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you backup your claim that those treaties constitute a legal claim by China? What I found about the Cairo Declaration: > The Cairo Declaration stated that “all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, including Manchuria, Formosa, shall be restored to the Republic of China.” The Spratlys and the Paracels were not seized or stolen by Japan from China. Japan seized the Paracels from the French and the Spr…

You can look up the various legal arguments China uses to assert their claims, but this is a fairly impartial analysis of positions from all parties [0]. Significantly, it includes reactions from various international observers around the time, uninfluenced by current geopolitical tensions. Security council countries like Britain, USSR who outright recognize Chinese sovereignty (ROC or PRC) over Paracel, Spratly Fran…

I don't think your case is very good. I read through that paper, which is not very much about the treaties, but I also didn't find any compelling arguments that the treaties say more than below.

What I gather they say is Japan gives up rights to the SCS and territories they siezed from China are returned to China (RPC, ROC, whatever).

However it doesn't say the Spratlys and the Paracels are returned to China, for example because Japan seized them from China.

I agree with your last points - the larger picture is that China can claim whatever they want, but their arguments aren't good enough to get the approval of major world players. So they'll have to protect their position with force or trading favors.

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