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Apple Silicon M1 Chips and Docker

docker.com

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Re: Apple Silicon M1 Chips and Docker

#51

Post by anyfoo »

easton wrote: post #25
lsllc wrote: post #17

Sounds a bit like Docker is at a loss. Caught between a closed source OS (rock) and an architecture change (hard place). Ideally, they could leverage Rosetta2 to run x64 containers under macOS on Apple Silicon ... but I guess Apple isn't playing ball (because otherwise they would have probably announced it at WWDC). At this point I see an Apple Silicon based Mac is just a consumer device, I don't think I'm going to b…

I think Apple didn’t want to support x86 emulation at all, and made Rosetta 2 purely AOT compilation (which you can’t really do with virtual machines). It makes it so they don’t have to deal with having x86 VMs available but super slow making people think that Apple Silicon is slow (even if that’s untrue), and that’s kind of the growing pain that Microsoft is going through at the moment with Windows on ARM.

Rosetta 2 purely AOT? Where did you get that idea from?

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Chips and Docker

#53

Post by jjcm »

moondev wrote: post #52

Apple's "demo" showed Docker for mac running, complete with containers. https://i.imgur.com/bQb1grM.png Docker here is saying their "for mac" application dependencies are not even all working yet. Unless I am missing something - Apple's Docker on silicon demo was fabricated?

Docker is likely saying that it doesn’t natively run on ARM yet. Apple’s demo was likely using Rosetta. That said this is all speculation at this point. We’ll know tomorrow.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Chips and Docker

#54

Post by mrtksn »

lsllc wrote: post #17

Sounds a bit like Docker is at a loss. Caught between a closed source OS (rock) and an architecture change (hard place). Ideally, they could leverage Rosetta2 to run x64 containers under macOS on Apple Silicon ... but I guess Apple isn't playing ball (because otherwise they would have probably announced it at WWDC). At this point I see an Apple Silicon based Mac is just a consumer device, I don't think I'm going to b…

> At this point I see an Apple Silicon based Mac is just a consumer device

Not everyone runs Docker or similar to do their work.

If it turns out that Apple’s performance claims are true, I don’t see people easily letting it go, a snappy machine is a serious advantage. After all, we are in this deep trouble because of the endless layers of abstraction, so I don’t see it getting any speedier anytime soon for the status quo.

Amazing blank sheets could open on this news M1 macs.

The performance claims are substantial, it could mean 3000$ snappiness at 1000$. A bit like making cheap DSLR and now everyone is a professional photographer, making room for new tools for the new comers.

Mac prices are the gatekeeper for the Apple dev ecosystem in the developing world or students from low income background because most will try to get the best bang for their limited bucks. Maybe it’s possible to unlock it?

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Chips and Docker

#55

Post by moondev »

Shank wrote: post #47

The really perplexing thing to me here is that Docker Desktop...was featured on stage at the Apple event. How? Did Apple just hack it together and get it working? Was it just fake? Was Docker involved at all? I feel like it was implied that Apple was doing the hard work here, but now it looks more like nobody was doing the work, and showing it off working was a hat trick?

https://i.imgur.com/bQb1grM.png

Makes you wonder what else was "simulated" during the demo?

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Chips and Docker

#57

Post by vbezhenar »

crb002 wrote: post #42
offtop5 wrote: post #32

Can we give them a full month to sort this out ? I want x64 docker on Arm , as this could also be massive for server power consumption. But things take time . If your some wiz kid who can crack this puzzle you’ll have a billion dollar startup within 6 months As someone who’s published on the App Store , having a single binary run on IPhone , IPad and Mac is a much much bigger deal than most of you realize .

I don't want x86 Docker on ARM.

What the point of docker if you can't just run single binary everywhere? That was its promise, right?

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Chips and Docker

#58

Post by paxys »

Here's how I expect things to go with Docker on Apple Silicon:

- Rosetta 2 will not be involved at all

- They will recompile the CLI, daemon and other parts of Docker Desktop natively for arm64 (but this has a dependency on the Go toolchain)

- There will likely be a bunch of bugs or general inconsistencies in the new Mac Hypervisor (their dev hardware didn't even support virtualization), so it's unlikely that Docker's Hyperkit will just work out of the box on M1

- The above will take till mid-2021 at the earliest, but should hopefully release along with more "pro" Mac hardware

- Once it is ready, you should be able to cross-compile and run x86_64 containers on new Macs, considering Docker Desktop will still automatically use QEMU to do the emulation. I expect running native arm64 containers will still be better though.

TL;DR - don't buy the current lineup of Apple Silicon machines just yet for serious Docker work.

Disclaimer: These are all just guesses

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Chips and Docker

#59

Post by jagger27 »

anyfoo wrote: post #51
easton wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Apple didn’t want to support x86 emulation at all, and made Rosetta 2 purely AOT compilation (which you can’t really do with virtual machines). It makes it so they don’t have to deal with having x86 VMs available but super slow making people think that Apple Silicon is slow (even if that’s untrue), and that’s kind of the growing pain that Microsoft is going through at the moment with Windows on ARM.

Rosetta 2 purely AOT? Where did you get that idea from?

It certainly still does some JIT/interpretation at runtime but it does indeed translate the executable upon first launch.^1 I can’t imagine how it would be able to fully translate a browser JavaScript engine that’s doing its own JIT, for example.

1: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/12/rosetta-2-translation-c...

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Chips and Docker

#60

Post by oplav »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #33
ninkendo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you going to deploy that ARM image to?

Aws Graviton2 images. It’s exciting to finally have ARM consumer laptops: it’ll encourage people to port applications to ARM which will make it easier to take advantage of cheap ARM servers.

While AWS has ARM servers available, GCP currently does not and it doesn’t seem to be on their immediate roadmap.
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