I never understood the fascination people have with self-referential 'paradoxes' like : "This statement is False". Pronouns do not have an independent existence. Until the pronoun 'This' resolves to an actual statement which has a valid true/false property, it is a recurrence without termination i.e. a infinite loop, that has no meaning. Suppose I say: 1. Sky is blue. 2. Previous statement is True. 3. Previous statem…
What Gödel Discovered
121–130 of 271 posts
Re: What Gödel Discovered
#122I never understood the fascination people have with self-referential 'paradoxes' like : "This statement is False". Pronouns do not have an independent existence. Until the pronoun 'This' resolves to an actual statement which has a valid true/false property, it is a recurrence without termination i.e. a infinite loop, that has no meaning. Suppose I say: 1. Sky is blue. 2. Previous statement is True. 3. Previous statem…
Your procedure of repeated substitution in order to resolve a paradox does little to shed light on the situation since at the heart of the halting problem is that there's no formal system that can determine whether this repeated substitution will ever come to an end.
Sure in your trivial example we could prove that it never comes to an end and determine that the statement is a paradox and label it as such, but there are some statements where it's not clear whether there's a paradox in the first place and there are some statements that are a paradox in one interpretation but in another interpretation are perfectly sensible.
Rest assured, no mathematician is scratching their head wondering whether "This statement is false." is some kind of mysterious statement whose undecidability has profound consequences. The issue is with statements like whether there exist 3 integers, x, y, z such that:
x^3 + y^3 + z^3 = 114
That statement in and of itself may very well be a "paradox" similar to a statement such as "This statement has no proof in theory T." even though on the surface it looks like a perfectly reasonable equation that should either have a solution or not have a solution. I mean either three such numbers exist or they don't exist, right?
And yet... it's possible that for the equation I gave there are solutions only under some interpretations of what we normally call natural numbers and in other interpretations of what we call natural numbers there isn't a solution, and there's no formal system that can filter out one interpretation over another so that there is one and only one unambiguous interpretation of natural numbers that we can always rely upon as the "real" interpretation.
There are perfectly normal looking sentences and problems that on the surface don't appear at all to be paradoxes or self referential, but then become so when you try to pin the question more precisely.
That's where the fascination comes from, from looking at a seemingly normal looking equation or statement about numbers that should just be true or false and realizing that whether it's true or false depends on some very deep and as-of-yet unknown properties of what we even mean when we talk about natural numbers.
Re: What Gödel Discovered
#123I really like the conversion to a representation that's more familiar but I suspect it's also confusing me. Here are the questions that I have to start: Does 'there-is' evaluate to a boolean (is boolean a thing? is evaluation a thing?) I was surprised that the axioms don't use there-is but I sense I shouldn't be? what does '(when 0 (or 0 1))' mean, it's described as 'when 0, then there is either 0 or 1' but I'm not s…
Re: What Gödel Discovered
#124Re: What Gödel Discovered
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
But that's ignoring the main thrust, which is that mathematicians compute /all sorts/ of uncomputable systems, with no apparent restriction. It's undecidable to have a general compression algorithm, but people compress data (e.g. their core values) to their theoretical limits all the time. If there's a landmark theorem that states "all mathematics greater than or equal to number theory is uncomputable, " and mathemat…
> all mathematics greater than or equal to number theory is uncomputable That's not what Godel's Incompleteness Theorem says though. Nor would I agree that "mathematicians compute /all sorts/ of uncomputable systems, with no apparent restriction." It is hard to describe the behavior of real-world mathematicians since that is the realm of psychology rather than logic or mathematics, but if we stick to the realm of ide…
This is actually not correct. The propositions that are undecidable are NOT AT ALL connected to the propositions that are independent. Things like the CH or Axiom of Determinacy have to do with providing a definition to things that have no defined truth value. But the undecidable propositions are already true or false they just can't be listed or computed in any meaningful fashion.
Re: What Gödel Discovered
#126Re: What Gödel Discovered
#127I thought this was an amazing article; thank you for writing it.
Re: What Gödel Discovered
#128I really like the conversion to a representation that's more familiar but I suspect it's also confusing me. Here are the questions that I have to start: Does 'there-is' evaluate to a boolean (is boolean a thing? is evaluation a thing?) I was surprised that the axioms don't use there-is but I sense I shouldn't be? what does '(when 0 (or 0 1))' mean, it's described as 'when 0, then there is either 0 or 1' but I'm not s…
Meanwhile, for universal quantification, we... just mention the variable. This intuitively makes sense: `there-is` is a restriction on a variable (the restriction is that there is at least one value for that variable). Meanwhile, the absence of restrictions implies universal quantification.
Specifying universal quantification like this is quite common in math proofs, and it's not too bad to get used to.
Re: What Gödel Discovered
#129Lispers learned marketing, bravo! The only issue is the missing credit to the Quanta article https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-godels-incompleteness-the... .
Went through the quanta article -- it seems reasonably different (doesn't go deep on how proof, subst, work, etc) -- I suspect the similarities stem from both of us reading Nagel and Newman's book.
Re: What Gödel Discovered
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
Others have explained why you can't wave away inconsistency (principle of explosion) nor incompleteness (adding new axioms just creates a new axiomatic system with its own Godel sentences). However you might also find it interesting what incompletenesses exist in our own mathematical system (ZFC) -- the most well-known example is the Continuum Hypothesis[1]: > There is no set whose cardinality is strictly between tha…
I thought that independent (undecidable) statements are totally different than the Gödel sentences which demonstrate incompleteness. The latter is a statement which is true in the axiomatic system but which cannot be proven using the axiomatic system. The former is just a statement that essentially has no truth value in the axiomatic system.
The Godel sentences are of a different character than the continuum hypothesis (CH) because the Godel sentences are simple first-order arithmetic statements, while the CH is a higher-order, a.k.a. analytic statement. A Godel sentence can be assigned a truth meaning via Tarski's definition of truth independent of the axiom system in a way that is much harder to do with the CH.
Basically a Godel sentence says something about whether a given piece of software terminates when run on an ideal computer (specifically a piece of software that hunts for a proof of a contradiction within a specified axiom system). I'll argue that whether a specific piece of software would halt or not when run on an ideal machine has a definite truth value independent of any axiom system. Whereas CH doesn't really afford such a software interpretation.
I do respect the fact that there exist models of PA + ~Con(PA) but these models are non-standard and we don't use such models to reason about software, specifically because they are unsound in this sense.