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Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

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Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#121

Post by sebmellen »

chrisseaton wrote: post #22
sebmellen wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already have voting machines in use! That's the software that needs to be open-sourced.

But why? What problem do they solve? Get rid of them. Don't convert them to open-source. This is the wrong argument to be making.

Well, optimally, yes. But I don't see this happening. Ballot counting machines and software are really the only way elections can happen in a reasonable timeframe in the US, and even then with considerable delays, as evidenced by this year's election.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#122

Post by rdsubhas »

godelski wrote: post #120
rdsubhas wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

:) maybe it's being part of the evolution. Once society is used to the presence of a machine, sees 5 years of trustworthy elections and recounts, and starts trusting it – then maybe the society moves on to the next stage, and opens up to seeing the machine and ballot as a small optimization. It took India 1 or 2 elections to get there. Before the first step happens, expecting the next steps would be premature I guess…

I think this ignores that the reasoning for this is not because faulty programmers, but worry about hacking. It is more that I am worried that the machine was hacked and that it prints something different. Elections are high value targets and last I checked nothing was unhackable. Quite the opposite actually.

I understand your point about "invisible hand" hacking, the kind where no one official on the ground is aware, but is orchestrated globally.

But reality is: The printed paper shown to the voter has to go somewhere. It cannot disappear or be hidden in the machine in secret compartments because the paper is in the mechanical side of things, not software. Such hidden compartments will not fall invisible to officials on the ground. It's not a black box machine in that sense, officials run basic physical and mechanical tests on it before voting happens. The machine is dumb and tiny.

I still understand your point about "anything can be hacked", but at this point, to hide something in physical sight needs on the ground support (which can happen regardless of machines), or needs discrete parts like a shredder which will make it mechanically huge and does not go unnoticed by such a large chain of command.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#123

Post by majewsky »

godelski wrote: post #106
jen20 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The overall counting process in the UK scales horizontally rather well (it's a great example of map-reduce!), and it's close to unthinkable that the results affected by any given count would not be known on the evening of an election day, even if the shape of the resulting government were not known as in 2010. What is not reflected however is the sheer number of votes that people tend to cast in the US - often voting…

You also have to consider that polling stations are not uniform in their ratio of people to workers/machines. Some places you can just walk right in and other places you wait all day to vote. Assuming symmetry in this aspect is ignoring the fundamental problem here. If you watched the graphs update you'd notice that the small counties typically got their results quickly but the large counties took a lot longer. There…

I don't know what's going on in the US system, but what you describe sounds rather broken. In Germany (where I live and regularly volunteer as a polling worker), a larger county does not report slower than a smaller county. "Larger county" would just mean "more polling places" so that each polling place maps to about the same number of voters, therefore the load is distributed smoothly. The longest line I've ever seen in a polling station was 10 people who showed up in a group, and it took only 5 minutes to serve all of them.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#124

Post by godelski »

rdsubhas wrote: post #122
godelski wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this ignores that the reasoning for this is not because faulty programmers, but worry about hacking. It is more that I am worried that the machine was hacked and that it prints something different. Elections are high value targets and last I checked nothing was unhackable. Quite the opposite actually.

I understand your point about "invisible hand" hacking, the kind where no one official on the ground is aware, but is orchestrated globally. But reality is: The printed paper shown to the voter has to go somewhere. It cannot disappear or be hidden in the machine in secret compartments because the paper is in the mechanical side of things, not software. Such hidden compartments will not fall invisible to officials on…

Yeah, but you can just solve this by having the human compare the two and place one in the bin. The hidden box just makes the receipt pointless.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#125

Post by foosamu »

It feels like voting and human rights is always delayed in our history. Creating something that would gurantee free elections could revolutionise the world. But that does not mean it's in everyone's short-term interest. Why would any corrupt politicians encourage something that would put them in prison?

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#126

Post by mattbrewsbytes »

There is Open Source voting software and it is in use in about a dozen states. I'm not sure to what extent - couple counties or statewide. It involves paper, voting machines and most importantly audit software.

https://voting.works and code here: https://github.com/votingworks

The general population outside of Hacker News wouldn't understand the concept of Open Source software.

Maybe try to get the above in use in your local county or state. Movements start locally, if enough people suggest this people in office will listen.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#127

Post by ploika »

godelski wrote: post #107
chrisseaton wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But yet again... you're talking about it relative to an alternative like punch machines... how about no machines .

I mean if we're calling a punch ballot a machine then I think a check mark constitutes a machine. Pencil, pen, hole punch, what's the difference? It is a mark on a physical piece of paper. I think you're trying to work your solution into being correct rather than recognizing that the problem itself is extremely complicated. Given your other comments and our other conversations it is clear that you're overly simplifyi…

> Pencil, pen, hole punch, what's the difference? It is a mark on a physical piece of paper

Hanging chads? You even brought up the 2000 election in the US yourself. Pencil and paper (and no machines) would have avoided that mess.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#128

Post by veddox »

corytheboyd wrote: post #68
aazaa wrote: post #31

> Why doesn't the United States (and other democracies) require open source voting software for all elections? One thing that's different about the US is that each state is responsible for carrying out its own elections. There is some federal involvement, but it's mostly up to the states to implement. One often-cited advantage of this approach is that it makes it difficult to attack a presidential election because yo…

I think a lot of people gloss over this because they don’t want it to be true, but it think it is. The red tape of it all actually makes it pretty damn secure, regardless of how “good” it is from the perspective of a software engineer. Imagine if every state used the same self hosted voting software, any weakness that can be attacked will be, and I’m sure it wouldn’t be that hard to social engineer your way into loca…

That is a point. On the other hand, with the electoral college system, you don‘t need to hack the entire US. A single swing-state might be enough.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#129

Post by veddox »

foosamu wrote: post #125

It feels like voting and human rights is always delayed in our history. Creating something that would gurantee free elections could revolutionise the world. But that does not mean it's in everyone's short-term interest. Why would any corrupt politicians encourage something that would put them in prison?

Nothing is going to guarantee free elections, certainly not any technology. Democracy is a human, social phenomenon. While it does pose technical challenges, it stands or falls with how humans behave, not how well the technology performs.
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