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Yelp Is Replacing Restaurants’ Phone Numbers So Grubhub Can Take a Cut (2019)

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Re: Yelp Is Replacing Restaurants’ Phone Numbers So Grubhub Can Take a Cut (2019)

#141

Post by chc »

wilshire_nc wrote: post #92
chc wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems unlikely that there is a large contingent of people who Google a restaurant (which they must be doing in order to get Yelp's number), ignore the listing of hours right next to the number and call the restaurant to get the hours. I believe it happens, but I have a hard time believing that particular sequence of events accounts for even one call in 50.

I do it all the time, google’s hours are often wrong, especially during covid.

To clarify: You're saying you do this more often than you order takeout? Especially during Covid? Because I explicitly said I believe it happens, just that it's a minority of calls.

Re: Yelp Is Replacing Restaurants’ Phone Numbers So Grubhub Can Take a Cut (2019)

#142

Post by skrtskrt »

jaryd wrote: post #134
skrtskrt wrote: post #133

It is really a shame to me that DuckDuckGo uses Yelp reviews in their search results. I understand they want to use a common review provider that's not Google, but Yelp is just so antithetical to the stated values of DDG

We actually moved to TripAdvisor a few months ago.

Ah that is great to see! Was the motivation about Yelp's practices or UX, or both?

Also is TripAdvisor the long-term plan or a stop-gap until a better 3rd party provider matures or something homegrown catches on?

Re: Yelp Is Replacing Restaurants’ Phone Numbers So Grubhub Can Take a Cut (2019)

#143

Post by rootusrootus »

At some level shouldn't Google feel some heat here? Yelp and GrubHub may be gaming the SEO, but Google owns the kingdom. This problem is prevalent enough that Google can't claim not to know about it. And they've certainly invested time in the past to make the algorithms give preference to more likely correct information. They should be penalizing Yelp and GrubHub sites, they're easy enough to recognize.

It won't take too long before people just quit trusting Google search results. That's probably for the best, unless you're Google, which is why I'm surprised they haven't nipped this practice in the bud.

Re: Yelp Is Replacing Restaurants’ Phone Numbers So Grubhub Can Take a Cut (2019)

#144

Post by fma »

jtsiskin wrote: post #105
fma wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, I dislike this practice...but to play devil's advocate (pls don't downvote for playing devil's advocate LOL) If I go to Google and I type in {name of my favorite restaurant}...and the first link on top is an ad placed by that restaurant, and below it is the actual restaurant's website...If I click on that ad, Google will charge that restaurant money, when it just redirects me to the website. In this c…

Whats the argument here? Most people would agree that what Google is doing is also immoral. But ignoring that, I don't see the equivalency - you are paying Google to prevent someone else from paying them more and showing up above you; in the Yelp case, your phone number already existed on Yelp, and someone is already on the page, yet GrubHub still adds their number.

Just pointing out that it's typical for tech companies to employ dark pattern for monetization in instances where they are providing no value. Playing wack-a-mole won't help and we probably need some sort of legislation to prove value is being provided before being charged.

(BTW I don't believe paying Google to prevent being above me is value ad. The intention of the searcher is known)

Another example is how Google charges an app creator 30% if someone purchases a subscription. A charge that occurs every, single, month despite Google providing no value after the first month. What's an app owner to do? Push for Apple store...where also take 30% cut?

Re: Yelp Is Replacing Restaurants’ Phone Numbers So Grubhub Can Take a Cut (2019)

#145

Post by dilyevsky »

elefanten wrote: post #88
dilyevsky wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing moral about their crusade - they got booted from the top of the search results along with other doorway-style crap like about.com and their conversion probably fell off the cliff. Had to explain that to investors somehow I suppose...

Sure but it was framed, in the consumer-facing messaging, as such. They also didn't get booted from search -- they're still always capturing/clogging the top results. Google added all their own cruft at the top, but the search results haven't changed.

I personally haven’t worked on search anything so don’t know the details. From purely user perspective (and very anecdotal) some search results were almost entirely seo spam from about.com, yelp, etc but it’s no longer the case.

Re: Yelp Is Replacing Restaurants’ Phone Numbers So Grubhub Can Take a Cut (2019)

#146

Post by jcranmer »

daniellarusso wrote: post #110
berdario wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's never RICO https://www.popehat.com/2016/06/14/lawsplainer-its-not-rico-... specifically, I don't see how this can be bribery. Who is the person or official that Yelp is bribing? It's not Grubhub, since Grubhub doesn't really have any authority to guide purchases through their systems. In fact, if anything, it's yelp which surreptitiously can guide purchases through more expensive (for the restaurant) services. B…

So, I re-read the above linked article and it seems like the article makes the case that this instance could fall under a civil RICO suit. Bribery, I am not using the correct term. Whatever the term that means “If you don’t pay us, bad things will happen.”

> Whatever the term that means “If you don’t pay us, bad things will happen.”

That would be extortion.

To shorten Popehat's explanation of RICO more fundamentally, RICO requires several elements to all apply to kick in. It is not mere extortion (plus other racketeering crimes). It is also not extortion repeated over several times. Instead, it is the repeated extortion by the defendant in the service of the distinct enterprise.

Stepping back out again, if you're arguing that a company's actions mean it violates RICO, you're almost certainly screwed because the defendant you're suing is the company, and the relevant enterprise is, uh, the company again, which causes the suit to fail.

So, no, it's not RICO because the defendant is Yelp and the enterprise is Yelp, and the defendant cannot be the enterprise.

Re: Yelp Is Replacing Restaurants’ Phone Numbers So Grubhub Can Take a Cut (2019)

#147

Post by DanBC »

Spivak wrote: post #77

Wait I don’t get the hate over this. This isn’t Grubhub pretending to be the restaurant or anything. This is Grubhub doing the equivalent of Google Search’s link tracking but for phone numbers so that they can attribute the sale to Yelp. Is it weird that Yelp has made referral codes for phone calls?

> When a user clicks on the “Call” button labeled “Delivery or Takeout,” they are taken to a different number, (646) 394-9837, which is owned by Grubhub.

> Yelp has historically functioned like an enhanced Yellow Pages, listing direct phone numbers for restaurants along with photos, information about the space, menus, and user reviews. But Yelp began prompting customers to call Grubhub phone numbers in October 2018 after the two companies announced a “long-term partnership.”

> In June, H. Claire Brown at The New Food Economy reported that the food delivery platform Grubhub has been creating thousands of websites in restaurants’ names, sometimes surpassing the restaurant’s own website in search engine visibility, in order to drive more online orders and commissions for Grubhub.

These feel like deceiving the customer.

Re: Yelp Is Replacing Restaurants’ Phone Numbers So Grubhub Can Take a Cut (2019)

#148

Post by chadlavi »

jamestimmins wrote: post #4

Very cool update at the top of the article "NEW: As of May 14, 2020, New York City has passed a bill to ban the practice of third parties charging a fee for phone calls that don't end in a sale. You can read about that here." Glad to see reporting working successfully and highlighting abusive practices which then leads to changes in the law.

How would Yelp know whether or not my call to a local restaurant ended in a sale without listening in on the phone call?

Re: Yelp Is Replacing Restaurants’ Phone Numbers So Grubhub Can Take a Cut (2019)

#149

Post by FireBeyond »

heavyset_go wrote: post #123
bichiliad wrote: post #112

I think that this practice of Yelp is pretty malicious. I did have a shower thought the other day, though: Individual restaurants often run their own websites. Plenty of those offer a phone number for you to call them through, and they frequently encourage you to do so because it saves them on order fees typically accrued by Yelp, GrubHub, Seamless, or any other order system. In order for that site to show up first i…

> In general, restaurant websites appear higher than their online ordered alternatives, but what's to stop Seamless (for example) from winning the SEO race against a non-trivial chunk of small restaurant websites? This would mean that there are plenty of cases in which you search for a restaurant and end up on Seamless, even though that's not the "right" search result. This already happens. These platforms go as far…

Look (listen?) for the cagey answers:

"Is this Restaurant X?"

"I can help you place an order!"

"But is this Restaurant X?"

"I can take your X order when ready!"

Re: Yelp Is Replacing Restaurants’ Phone Numbers So Grubhub Can Take a Cut (2019)

#150

Post by xapata »

chc wrote: post #141
wilshire_nc wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do it all the time, google’s hours are often wrong, especially during covid.

To clarify: You're saying you do this more often than you order takeout ? Especially during Covid? Because I explicitly said I believe it happens, just that it's a minority of calls.

Yeah, I almost never order over the phone. I go in person to look at the menu.
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