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Once the disease of gluttonous aristocrats, gout is now tormenting the masses

nytimes.com

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Re: Once the disease of gluttonous aristocrats, gout is now tormenting the masses

#141

Post by magicnubs »

arkj wrote: post #87

A close friend of mine suffered from gout since 2012 and it got aggravated since last two years. He also was severely obese with a BMI around 37. Last year his SGPT and SGOT levels really spiked up drastically and doctor suggested it was the beginning of Fibrosis and asked him to reduce weight. He started intermittent fasting 18:6 and religious intake of ~3 litres (250 ml per kg). He reduced 20 kgs in last 8 months.…

> religious intake of ~3 litres (250 ml per kg)

Intake of what? (I'm guessing water?)

Re: Once the disease of gluttonous aristocrats, gout is now tormenting the masses

#142

Post by Emphere »

darkerside wrote: post #110
jiofih wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fiber will impact the absorption rate and insulin spike, but in the end you’ll have consumed the same amount of sugar. For calorie-counting purposes, or say, avoiding gout due to fructose intake, there will be no difference.

Why wouldn't the absorption rate have an impact? Seems like it could slow down absorption enough for your kidneys to filter out byproducts that can lead to gout. Interested to learn if you know something different.

No, fiber does not have that big of an impact on absorption. That's why most fruits are a big no on keto diets

Re: Once the disease of gluttonous aristocrats, gout is now tormenting the masses

#143

Post by ta988 »

cheezerman wrote: post #20

Something that I learned recently that blew my mind was that gout is caused primarily from consuming DNA. How? Gout is caused by a buildup of uric acid, which is created in the body as a byproduct of breaking down purines. Purines are essentially broken down pieces of DNA. This makes sense when you discover that beer can cause or worsen gout, because of the large amount of yeast present, but other fermented beverages…

There is this common fallacy when dealing with chemistry that compounds with close structures (or substructures) are the same or have related effects. You can find benzene rings as a substructure of some amino acids all over your proteins doesn't mean eating protein will poison you with benzene...

Sometimes just as little as a change in the spatial configuration of a compound (cis/trans isomers for example) or the addition of a carbon can dramatically change the effect of a molecule on a living body...

Re: Once the disease of gluttonous aristocrats, gout is now tormenting the masses

#144

Post by hombre_fatal »

Ragib_Zaman wrote: post #69
rusk wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By cutting out “fructose” surely you don’t mean cutting out fruit? Do mean derivatives like fructose syrup and stuff?

Most fruit are nowhere near as healthy as most people expect they are. They have been selectively bred over many hundreds of years to be far larger, sweeter and more devoid of micronutrients than they were hundreds of years ago. The amount of sugar (especially fructose) in fruits like apples, oranges and bananas is shockingly high, and can cause or exacerbate conditions such as obesity, fatty liver, type 2 diabetes,…

Obese people avoiding fruit is one of the biggest eye roll on offer. I had a fat roommate who measured out the raw almonds he ate because they were calorie dense the same day he’d eat two whole pizzas for dinner.

Meanwhile, almonds and bananas aren’t the things making people fat. Looking at my own fat friends, some tasty fruit is the only fiber they even get.

And vegetables aren’t even on the menu of most fat people I’ve lived with. Don’t discourage the only healthy habits people do have.

Look at the the actual diet of an obese / fatty liver / type2 person and you’ll see how silly this advice is. It ain’t the fruit.

Re: Once the disease of gluttonous aristocrats, gout is now tormenting the masses

#145

Post by stronglikedan »

jjav wrote: post #53

Started having severe gout attacks in 2004. Doctors are particularly unaware about gout. Despite having extremely painful and long attacks (during one attack, spent more than a month in bed unable to walk), all the doctors I saw had no idea despite endless tests. Finally based on my own research I suggested gout and they were like "oh yes, I suppose it could be that". Once diagnosed, doctors are quick to get you on d…

> doctors are quick to get you on daily drugs for the rest of your life.

When all you really need is an 8oz glass of tart cherry juice per day [0]. If you have "trigger" foods [1], then those still need to be avoided, but the cherry juice will allow you to enjoy a normal, non-excessive diet of pretty much everything else.

[0] Sweet cherry juice works too, but you need a lot more of it, to the point where it would be excessive and unhealthy.

[1] By trigger foods, I mean those that will cause a gout attack regardless of how much is consumed. For me, it's spinach - as little as one leaf will make my toe sore for a couple of days. Most people never learn their trigger foods, so consider yourself lucky if you know yours.

Re: Once the disease of gluttonous aristocrats, gout is now tormenting the masses

#146

Post by nicoburns »

mcny wrote: post #138
sqldba wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a very simplistic way of looking at things which isn’t supported by medical science. Specifically glucose, fructose, sucrose, are worth treating differently for the purposes of diet management.

>> Sugar is sugar. >> That’s a very simplistic way of looking at things which isn’t supported by medical science. I agree with you on this one but from what I've heard, it is likely that fruit juices and smoothies are not fruits either. If that is correct, the message can get very muddied. >> Specifically glucose, fructose, sucrose, are worth treating differently for the purposes of diet management. Now we need to no…

> from what I've heard, it is likely that fruit juices and smoothies are not fruits either. If that is correct, the message can get very muddied.

Not really. The original comment in this chain talked about processed foods vs unprocessed. Fruit juices are fairly obviously processed so this rule works for them too.

Re: Once the disease of gluttonous aristocrats, gout is now tormenting the masses

#147

Post by scythe »

darkerside wrote: post #109
nordsieck wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sugar amount in fruit has a direct impact on the overall calories you consume but since fruit are also high in fibre, the contained sugar is not comparable to, say, a chocolate bar. I think a more precise way to say this is: Due to the water and fiber in fruit, they tend to be more satiating than eating something like a chocolate bar on a calorie normalized basis.

My understanding is that the fiber literally prevents absorption of fructose, so parent's comment is accurate

Fructose is almost always absorbed; fructose malabsorption causes SIBO. Fiber reduces the glycemic index and makes fruit more satiating. Glucose aids the absorption of fructose preventing SIBO.

But in the case of fruit w.r.t. gout, the missing variable here is that while fructose increases the production of uric acid, potassium promotes the excretion of uric acid [1], and fruits are generally an excellent source of potassium while soft drinks contain little to none. The net effect of fruit on gout risk seems to be inconclusive [2] but it's clear that fruits are much less concerning than foods with added fructose. Since a significant fraction of Westerners do not consume enough potassium [3], and potassium is key to preventing hypertension and stroke [4,5], it is bad advice to suggest reducing fruit consumption for most people, unless you're already eating like Steve Jobs.

1: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S008525381...

2: https://academic.oup.com/rheumatology/article-abstract/58/7/...

3: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S02709...

4: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%252Fs11906-011-019...

5: https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/abstract/1...

Re: Once the disease of gluttonous aristocrats, gout is now tormenting the masses

#148

Post by slfnflctd »

sethammons wrote: post #104
onion2k wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100 years would mean no processed food, vegetable oils and a lot less sugar. But a lot more salt.

On mobile so I won’t be looking up a source. Was listening to a pod cast from a a cardiac specialist whose position was that higher salt intake is not as important for heart and artery health as long as you have balanced exercise and hydration. His point was that excessive carbohydrates lead to inflammation which leads to plaque build up which leads to heart disease. But salt can be ok.

There might also be evidence that as with so many other things, different people require different amounts.

My partner consistently shows low sodium in their blood work, yet eats way more salt than I do (my blood results are normal) and craves saltier things. They will put salt on already-salted foods that I consider too salty already.

Re: Once the disease of gluttonous aristocrats, gout is now tormenting the masses

#149

Post by Fumtumi »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #144
Ragib_Zaman wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most fruit are nowhere near as healthy as most people expect they are. They have been selectively bred over many hundreds of years to be far larger, sweeter and more devoid of micronutrients than they were hundreds of years ago. The amount of sugar (especially fructose) in fruits like apples, oranges and bananas is shockingly high, and can cause or exacerbate conditions such as obesity, fatty liver, type 2 diabetes,…

Obese people avoiding fruit is one of the biggest eye roll on offer. I had a fat roommate who measured out the raw almonds he ate because they were calorie dense the same day he’d eat two whole pizzas for dinner. Meanwhile, almonds and bananas aren’t the things making people fat. Looking at my own fat friends, some tasty fruit is the only fiber they even get. And vegetables aren’t even on the menu of most fat people…

To add to your very generic statement:

Fruit juice contains a lot of sugar; Oranges contain a lot of sugar;

Make sure you check how much calories you take in regardless of the food.

A good understanding of food healthiness is to understand what you are eating.

Re: Once the disease of gluttonous aristocrats, gout is now tormenting the masses

#150

Post by ksdale »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #144
Ragib_Zaman wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most fruit are nowhere near as healthy as most people expect they are. They have been selectively bred over many hundreds of years to be far larger, sweeter and more devoid of micronutrients than they were hundreds of years ago. The amount of sugar (especially fructose) in fruits like apples, oranges and bananas is shockingly high, and can cause or exacerbate conditions such as obesity, fatty liver, type 2 diabetes,…

Obese people avoiding fruit is one of the biggest eye roll on offer. I had a fat roommate who measured out the raw almonds he ate because they were calorie dense the same day he’d eat two whole pizzas for dinner. Meanwhile, almonds and bananas aren’t the things making people fat. Looking at my own fat friends, some tasty fruit is the only fiber they even get. And vegetables aren’t even on the menu of most fat people…

My own anecdote is that my dad was diabetic and he definitely didn't understand how much sugar was in fruit. He did ok controlling his blood sugar, but he considered fruit to be "healthy" and so ate about as much of it as he wanted, which regularly caused blood sugar spikes.

And I know it's not the same thing, but the number of times our small kids get offered juice as a "healthy" option when it's got almost as much sugar as soda... I think it's a real phenomena that certain things have a reputation for being much healthier than they are and it causes problems.

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