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The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

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Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#201

Post by 1024core »

fierarul wrote: post #192
1024core wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason they don't get hired is because it is always a gamble doing that. So if you don't let them make an honest living, how the hell will they survive?? You claim they're all thieves and they don't want to be integrated, so you deny them any job prospects. And then you turn around and wonder why they steal!! How else will they feed their families or afford the basic necessities, man? I'm not saying they're all…

There's no comparison to how blacks were treated in America, we are not barbarians. There's no colored bathrooms and stuff like that. They have all the legal right as any citizen to own propert, start companies, hire others, etc. Further more there a lot of positive discrimination by guaranteeing them seats in Universities, etc.

> There's no comparison to how blacks were treated in America, we are not barbarians. There's no colored bathrooms and stuff like that.

At least in America now there are laws specifically disallowing discrimination against blacks and minorities. But it appears in Romania and the rest of Eastern Europe there is still widespread discrimination against the Roma. Looks pretty barbaric to me!

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#202

Post by radu_floricica »

EB-Barrington wrote: post #16

Post author here. Stolipinovo is one of several European Roma communities that I have visited over the years (several times now), and it's the largest that I'm aware of. The photos in the post are representative and true of how the area actually is, and I'm happy to answer any questions (forewarning, I'm not an expert). If I were to emphasize any one take-away - it's the friendliness I experienced from the locals. So…

I want to echo what chimen said, with a bit of nuance. There is discrimination, real and pretty strong. But on the other hand it's rational to discriminate - if a group of traditionally dressed roma is entering a shop, you'd better bet the security guard will follow their every step without even bothering to be subtle, and that he's doing this from experience. And walking around in roma neighborhoods as a foreigner is a _very_ chancy activity. Nobody local will even cry for you if you get robbed.

The main reason for this state of affairs is roma's traditional reliance on internal law and complete disregard for outsiders and their laws. Coupled with this is a tendency to just not apply morality to whatever you do to outsiders. This makes it very very hard to change their ways from outside - even 40 years of communism barely made a dent. Best strategy I know of is to make sure each individual has full protection of the host nation's laws and support mechanisms, and that they know it. This makes it possible for them to disregard internal laws with less fear of being ostracized. It's a slow strategy, but I know of none quicker.

And to end on a brighter note, in the next elections I'll be voting for an independent, who is the newest rising star of local politics. He's a gypsy.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#203

Post by [deleted] »

rsync wrote: post #163
umvi wrote: post #2

I have quite a few European friends on social media and they always seem perplexed whenever racial tensions flare up in the USA. Some even have openly asked "why do Americans find it so hard not to be racist? It's not that hard." I always respond by pointing out that the citizens of almost every country are naturally xenophobic and/or racist, just not necessarily against people of African descent. In the case of Euro…

"I always respond by pointing out that the citizens of almost every country are naturally xenophobic and/or racist, just not necessarily against people of African descent. In the case of Europe, I usually point to the Roma ..." I think Roma are the least interesting example of this. In 2020 I had the pleasure of reading the Nobel Laureate Sigrid Undset's Magnum Opus _Kristin Lavransdatter_. For those that don't know,…

[deleted]

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#204

Post by rixed »

3np wrote: post #162
EB-Barrington wrote: post #16

Post author here. Stolipinovo is one of several European Roma communities that I have visited over the years (several times now), and it's the largest that I'm aware of. The photos in the post are representative and true of how the area actually is, and I'm happy to answer any questions (forewarning, I'm not an expert). If I were to emphasize any one take-away - it's the friendliness I experienced from the locals. So…

The first thing that stands out to me is the choice of the word "gypsy". While many Roma are perfectly fine with it and even use it themselves, there are also many who find the word offensive and it has historically been used as a racial slur. Why not drop the word alltogether and fall back to the (at least to my understanding) neutral "roma"?

Since you sounds honest and not sarcastic, may I take this opportunity to ask you what mechanism do you believe will help improving the actual situation once the word have been successfully changed (assuming for the sake of discussion that the word can be effectively changed) ? I have always been intrigued by the power of words.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#205

Post by Kosirich »

From all the posts in this thread, I wonder if there is a positive example of integration of Roma anywhere in Europe that other Europeans might look to. Croatia, country where I'm from has it's own share of problems with Roma and the levels of integration vary.

One of the issues I is the social welfare state and the underlying social contracts it is based upon that are taken advantage of by Roma. There is an incentive for Roma communities to stay the same because of that as minimum social welfare check, child support and similar handouts help provide for a life based on large communities.

In order to make any progress, a country should start by recognizing that in order to help Roma people and brake the cycle, special laws will be needed. In order to be smart about it, it should be done like Denmark did it with it's ghetto laws where they target an area (not ethnicity) and implement special restrictions, tougher laws, tougher punishment but at the same time focus more on providing primary and secondary education, working with families and so on.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#206

Post by rixed »

chimen wrote: post #185
EB-Barrington wrote: post #16

Post author here. Stolipinovo is one of several European Roma communities that I have visited over the years (several times now), and it's the largest that I'm aware of. The photos in the post are representative and true of how the area actually is, and I'm happy to answer any questions (forewarning, I'm not an expert). If I were to emphasize any one take-away - it's the friendliness I experienced from the locals. So…

"if the public found out a Gypsy was working in the kitchen, most people would never dine at that restaurant" - I don't dig that, it's a lie. I live just two hundred miles north in Romania and we have our own communities here - bigger even. The reason they don't get hired is because it is always a gamble doing that. They either steal or avoid work whenever possible. Most criminal gangs are by gypsies and most stealin…

Racism is not that obviously immoral behavior depicted in Disney movies when ugly people misjudge good people for frivolous reasons. Racism is when a group of people consider another group as inferior / less worthy for some reason conflated with their biology or culture (of which most often than not very little is actually known). Racism is exactly the thoughts you have just expressed.

Upvoted for your honest contribution that sheds some light on what's racism in 2020's Europe, despite it makes me sad how easily one still associate the conduct of some members of a minority that's discriminated against with the genuine culture of that community.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#207

Post by AussieWog93 »

thisrod wrote: post #186
AussieWog93 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US and certain upper-middle class echelons of other Western nations, maybe. Outside of that bubble, though, it ranges from neutral to positive to acknowledge a person's ethnicity.

Lol at the nominative determinism!

I didn't even realise. That's hilarious!

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#208

Post by monocasa »

fierarul wrote: post #192
1024core wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason they don't get hired is because it is always a gamble doing that. So if you don't let them make an honest living, how the hell will they survive?? You claim they're all thieves and they don't want to be integrated, so you deny them any job prospects. And then you turn around and wonder why they steal!! How else will they feed their families or afford the basic necessities, man? I'm not saying they're all…

There's no comparison to how blacks were treated in America, we are not barbarians. There's no colored bathrooms and stuff like that. They have all the legal right as any citizen to own propert, start companies, hire others, etc. Further more there a lot of positive discrimination by guaranteeing them seats in Universities, etc.

> There's no comparison to how blacks were treated in America, we are not barbarians.

They've literally been genocided with few Europeans actually caring at the end of the day (the holocaust killed almost a third of them). They're arguably treated worse than blacks in America.

The way Roma are and have been treated is pretty much definition barbaric.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#209

Post by monocasa »

fierarul wrote: post #191
3np wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first thing that stands out to me is the choice of the word "gypsy". While many Roma are perfectly fine with it and even use it themselves, there are also many who find the word offensive and it has historically been used as a racial slur. Why not drop the word alltogether and fall back to the (at least to my understanding) neutral "roma"?

Such a silly choice. If some people really hate a group won't the new self designated word become a racial slur too? What then?

Gypsy was always a slur. It's not a case of a euphemism treadmill.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#210

Post by fierarul »

1024core wrote: post #201
fierarul wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no comparison to how blacks were treated in America, we are not barbarians. There's no colored bathrooms and stuff like that. They have all the legal right as any citizen to own propert, start companies, hire others, etc. Further more there a lot of positive discrimination by guaranteeing them seats in Universities, etc.

> There's no comparison to how blacks were treated in America, we are not barbarians. There's no colored bathrooms and stuff like that. At least in America now there are laws specifically disallowing discrimination against blacks and minorities. But it appears in Romania and the rest of Eastern Europe there is still widespread discrimination against the Roma. Looks pretty barbaric to me!

Yeah, sure, other countries don't have such laws. And your laws are clearly working very well considering the events this year.
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