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Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

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Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#61

Post by chrisseaton »

throwaway2245 wrote: post #57
chrisseaton wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what impact you think this makes? If each community counts their votes... why does it matter how large an area they collectively cover?

It already has an impact within the UK. St Ives constituency in the UK is generally the last to declare, presumably because the island populations are so small and remote it's considered unsafe for them to individually count and report the results for collation, for multiple potential reasons (Gugh: 3 residents)

And yet they have it done within a few hours.

Why is it about the US that means it takes a week... even with these machines which supposedly make it better?

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#62

Post by cle »

aazaa wrote: post #31

> Why doesn't the United States (and other democracies) require open source voting software for all elections? One thing that's different about the US is that each state is responsible for carrying out its own elections. There is some federal involvement, but it's mostly up to the states to implement. One often-cited advantage of this approach is that it makes it difficult to attack a presidential election because yo…

To expand on this, I’d totally support regulations requiring states to maintain some level of supply chain independence and diversity of software and hardware between them, to improve resilience against attacks.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#63

Post by dilippkumar »

Slightly related question: Why are voting machines soo complicated that there’s scope for any bugs in the first place?

A vote counting software based on dedicated buttons- one for each option to vote on - should be something that is simple enough to be assigned as an CS undergraduate course project.

We have built very sophisticated banking software that handles several orders of magnitude more computations and has been ticking away bug-free for decades now.

What am I missing?

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#64

Post by rootusrootus »

sova wrote: post #29

I want to be able to make sure my ballot was counted. Give me a public/private key pair when you mail me my ballot or when I leave the polls, and encrypt it in such a way that I can confirm the authenticity myself. As a software developer, I will not be convinced that this is not possible.

IIRC this is what Microsoft ElectionGuard aims to do. That was the software that was tried in Texas, failed to gain traction, and now Microsoft has taken it up as a project.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#65

Post by bmuon »

TameAntelope wrote: post #27
LatteLazy wrote: post #2

There really isn't a good case to be made for electronic voting at all. Paper is much simpler, more reliable and has none of these issues.

I know this is a naïve viewpoint, but I'm not yet totally convinced there is absolutely no way to securely enable digital elections. Obviously I defer to the experts in the field for what is and isn't possible, but something about it scratches at the back of my mind...

It's not just about security. It's also about democracy. Who can verify that a voting system is secure? Only software engineers. And to be honest, only a small subset of them. Your own comment hints at that. Paper ballots allow anyone to verify the results of an election. It's supposed to be a universal process that everyone can be a part of.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#66

Post by boulos »

(I'm going to assume you mean the vote counting machines / software)

tl;dr: In the US that decision would be up to each state.

In the US at least, the management of elections is left to the individual states. Assuming you're most interested in the US Presidential election, it's also specifically delegated to the states to choose how they wish to select their electors (it just happens that most use a popular vote of their citizens in a winner-take-all setup per state).

There are a number of groups trying to push for more transparency, but it's fundamentally a per-state issue in the US. California has a bill [1] that seems like it "passed" but is referred to committee (stuck). It would establish $16M in funding, at least half of which goes to development, which must be AGPL 3:

> (1) All of the system’s software developed at least in part using state or county funds pursuant to this section must be licensed exclusively under the GNU Affero General Public License 3.0 or a later version.

and

> (2) All of the system’s software components must be open source during development, using a process that is open to public feedback. Development must be carried out in public repositories by January 1, 2021.

So some folks definitely agree we should have open-source election software. Most likely, if a system becomes successful in California (the largest market) it could spread to other states. As frustrating and repetitive as it sounds: you need people to vote in local elections, and contact their local representatives.

[1] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#68

Post by corytheboyd »

aazaa wrote: post #31

> Why doesn't the United States (and other democracies) require open source voting software for all elections? One thing that's different about the US is that each state is responsible for carrying out its own elections. There is some federal involvement, but it's mostly up to the states to implement. One often-cited advantage of this approach is that it makes it difficult to attack a presidential election because yo…

I think a lot of people gloss over this because they don’t want it to be true, but it think it is. The red tape of it all actually makes it pretty damn secure, regardless of how “good” it is from the perspective of a software engineer. Imagine if every state used the same self hosted voting software, any weakness that can be attacked will be, and I’m sure it wouldn’t be that hard to social engineer your way into local governments to exploit.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#69

Post by creato »

chrisseaton wrote: post #54
takeda wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know about UK, but I suspect it is because they start counting as soon as they receive them. In US there were some laws that counting couldn't start before polls are closed. Despite mail in ballots arriving a month earlier. In some places they weren't even allowed to prepare them for counting (like verifying signatures and removing ballots from envelopes).

The UK does not start counting until polls are closed. They count all ballots - both in-person and mail-in - within a few hours. They have a lot of people in gyms and just go through them quickly.

The states that had long delayed results were due to being close, and accepting mail in ballots long after polls closed. It's not a matter of counting speed.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#70

Post by takeda »

chrisseaton wrote: post #13

> Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated? ... Why don't people demand it? Because paper is simpler and better. It works just fine in other countries. > All software has bugs. So why do you want software? What do you think the advantages are?

> Because paper is simpler and better. It works just fine in other countries.

Also this should be emphasized that you don't need a PhD to tell a fraud is being committed in front of you with paper ballots. I believe that's the most important thing about it.

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