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Scientists grow bigger monkey brains using human genes, replicating evolution

interestingengineering.com

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Re: Scientists grow bigger monkey brains using human genes, replicating evolution

#141

Post by ChuckMcM »

grawprog wrote: post #46

I find it hard to describe how I feel about this. These scientists essentially created what may have been a new species, that perhaps would have had similar sentience to us and had them terminated after 100 days. The cat's out of the bag with this research so to speak now. Someone's bound to do this again The part about whether they should have been born or not, which was the ethical thing is what tears at me. Is it…

I feel pretty simply, I feel a sense of sadness at the kinds of 21st century problems my kids and their kids are going to have to deal with.

At some point in the next 25 years I expect there to be a 'procedure' available, which consists of cultivating a persons stem cells from their bone marrow, using a genetic editing technique to add and/or delete and/or "correct" certain genetic sequences, and then to have a "bone marrow transplant" which is simply killing off your existing bone marrow stem cells and replacing them with the edited ones.

It will be touted as a durable cure for genetic disease and marketed underground to people of means who are looking for an edge in their chosen profession.

There will be lawsuits over people who have their their genetic sequences "appropriated" by a third party to re-sell as a product, and patent litigation on gene sequences that makes much of today's trolls seem quaint in comparison.

I expect to see dog shows and horse races ban "genetically modified" contestants. I expect to see lawsuits around the labeling of beef and chicken about being genetically modified (yes some of this is already happening).

The world will be profoundly different on the far side of generalized understanding of genetics and the means to manipulate them. At least as different as it has become pre-internet+computer to post internet+computer.

Re: Scientists grow bigger monkey brains using human genes, replicating evolution

#142

Post by throwaway_pdp09 »

renewiltord wrote: post #118
throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is aiming to master the rock that is the Earth Genes aren't goal directed towards something higher. > This cause requires no convincing because only winners get to play the next round The 'winners', us humans, are literally destroying the ecosphere which supports our life. > Understanding is overrated. That's an appeal to ignorance. > Control does not require it [understanding] We can control something without unde…

> Genes aren't goal directed towards something higher. No, but "this gene cluster" is me - and I am goal-directed. > We can control something without understanding it? Most of science would disagree. No, they wouldn't. Epistemology has progressed beyond this. Models have various levels of fidelity. And 'understanding' is a colloquial term that refers to a higher standard of fidelity than that required for control. Fe…

> and I am goal-directed.

OK, straight questiom goal directed towards what?

> And 'understanding' is a colloquial term that refers to a higher standard of fidelity than that required for control

Don't agree - further

> Few drivers know how their cars work. Most drivers can drive their cars.

Understanding is about understanding of aspects. They may well not understand the engine aspect (how it works precisely) but "Most drivers can drive their cars" means they control their cars, which means they understand what happens when a steering wheel is turned, and how not to grind the gears, and not to hit accelerator and brake together. They model it. That is the embodiment of their understanding. Without that they could not control a car.

> Why, thank you for...

Quite clearly there was a question mark at the end it to indicate my implied doubt. Science seeks better understanding of x so it can manipulate x more precisely. Please give me a couple of examples of complex systems which we don't understand but can control, so I can understand you better.

Re: Scientists grow bigger monkey brains using human genes, replicating evolution

#143

Post by klunger »

grawprog wrote: post #46

I find it hard to describe how I feel about this. These scientists essentially created what may have been a new species, that perhaps would have had similar sentience to us and had them terminated after 100 days. The cat's out of the bag with this research so to speak now. Someone's bound to do this again The part about whether they should have been born or not, which was the ethical thing is what tears at me. Is it…

I don't. It makes me sick to my stomach.

I am speaking as someone who is pro-choice, pro-GMO's and pro-stem cell research, etc. This research has crossed a line that none of the above do. It is creating a new kind of sentience, a new kind of soul.

And, what's the point? To confirm a theory about a gene? So fricking what. That really doesn't matter, not in relation to the possible consequences: someone taking this research to create a race of "sub-human" slaves that think and feel as acutely as we do. Pick your genetic engineering dystopia for where this is leading us- Brave New World, Planet of the Apes, Gattaca, even the Uplift series.

It never should have gotten approved by an ethics review board. The 100 days termination was just so they could claim to have considered ethics. If they actually seriously had done so, this project would have never left the drawing board.

Finally: I wish people would stop staying the genie is out of the bottle. The genie is whatever we humans decide to do. You can't just assume that because something is possible that it will be done. We can have moral boundaries as a society. We can say "this is a bridge too far and no one should cross it". And anyone who does will be excommunicated from the scientific world.

There is nothing inevitable about this dark path. Saying that it is inevitable just removes responsibility from whoever does it, which is just BS.

.

edit: grammar, clarity

Re: Scientists grow bigger monkey brains using human genes, replicating evolution

#144

Post by ben_w »

plutonorm wrote: post #73
patcon wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, though the ethics are certainly dicey, I do wonder whether recreating a bridge intelligence between man and animal would raise appropriate societal questions that we've chosen not the think about all of modern history (lacking any sort of Neanderthal cohabitant). It might help us all be in more relation with the world. Our lack of relation feels to me to be part of what's driving us into this extinction eve…

Neanderthals had larger brains in proportion to their body mass than we do. They were possibly smarter than we were.

We don’t know enough to know if that’s a good measure; if it is, ants would be at the top of the list for all animals, and treeshrews for mammals: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio

Re: Scientists grow bigger monkey brains using human genes, replicating evolution

#146

Post by flatline »

erickj wrote: post #138
vikramkr wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're giving nature too much credit. Nature doesn't try and balance life. Nature doesn't care- it throws asteroid impacts and supervolcanos and natural disasters all over the place. Life just happens to be very very resilient and consistently able to jump back and fill new niches. Nature also "created" us - were a product of the universe like everything else. If we are destabilizing, so is nature. And most scientist…

However in the exact same vane that "Nature doesn't care"... We as Humans should and DO care. We are not Nature, and thus these existential defining issues should at least give us some pause to debate and evaluate the moral quandaries and responsibilities that this level of engineering power wields.

We are very much Nature. Possibly something independent of our own minds exist; we can never really know. Anything worth preserving, caring for, or caring about, is a product of the human mind. The meteor careening into the earth does not feel a moral quandary, but we do, and as such I agree that given our limited knowledge we should care. But we should also pay heed to how ignorant we are: we cannot possibly know how our present actions will play out in the future, the best we can do is try to be compassionate and take care of what we can. The rest is out of our control and hence our sphere of responsibility.

Re: Scientists grow bigger monkey brains using human genes, replicating evolution

#147

Post by quickthrower2 »

CyberRabbi wrote: post #60
scott31 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll never play Doom on a single neuron.

You’ll never play doom on any amount of neurons... brains are not cpus

Why not? You could manually process the assembler on pen/paper. Sure the FPS might be a bit on the low side.

Re: Scientists grow bigger monkey brains using human genes, replicating evolution

#148

Post by zxcvbn4038 »

I’m pretty sure I saw this movie - had Charlton Heston in it. You know someone is going to grow this to maturity, either an individual researcher looking for fame or a sovereign state looking for prestige, then of course we’ll have to know if the mutations are propagated.

Re: Scientists grow bigger monkey brains using human genes, replicating evolution

#149

Post by downrightmike »

grawprog wrote: post #46

I find it hard to describe how I feel about this. These scientists essentially created what may have been a new species, that perhaps would have had similar sentience to us and had them terminated after 100 days. The cat's out of the bag with this research so to speak now. Someone's bound to do this again The part about whether they should have been born or not, which was the ethical thing is what tears at me. Is it…

Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel touched on this. Neo Dogs are a novelty in society, a sideshow to the general public, but they have the Intelligence similar to a human moron, but is a Mozart for their species. And they use them in war, which is their main use. The recruiter that works with the protagonist, was a bonded partner. They bond deeply to their Neo Dog and if the Neo Dog dies, it is more humane to kill the handler immediately, or put them in a drug induced coma for a couple months and then rehabbing them. The recruiter was put into a coma, but is still dealing with the loss of his Neo Dog, and agrees that killing the handler asap is kinder than having to go through the rehab.

Re: Scientists grow bigger monkey brains using human genes, replicating evolution

#150

Post by jassany »

The fact they didn't let the fetus grow really fucking sucks. Sure, ethics most definitely has its name etched on the science stone.

But people WILL without a shred of doubt recreate this experiment, and they most likely won't be as ethically inclined as the nice folks behind this paper.

The point am trying to make here is that we need to be prepared to deal with how a discovery like could influence our future. The best way to do that is to know what expect with enough time ahead to react.

And yeah sure people will say this is just an excuse for morbidly curious people like me to simply see what happens, and while I'm literally brimming in desire to know myself, theres a bigger picture, bearing witness is just a perk:)

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