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Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

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Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#31

Post by aazaa »

> Why doesn't the United States (and other democracies) require open source voting software for all elections?

One thing that's different about the US is that each state is responsible for carrying out its own elections. There is some federal involvement, but it's mostly up to the states to implement.

One often-cited advantage of this approach is that it makes it difficult to attack a presidential election because you'd have to work across different state voting systems.

So a national mandate would face opposition on the federalism issue.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#32

Post by heavyset_go »

sova wrote: post #23
chrisseaton wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to OP's question is... why have software at all? Why not just paper? Why do you want a 'voting machine' at all? What's wrong with paper? The solution to a problem that should not be solved with software is not to have different software.

We went from abacus to digital circuit painstakingly over thousands of years and you're using a compute-er with a screen to post this comment. There's nothing wrong with paper except its extreme inefficiency in the human realm. We could have audit-able ballots and public/private keys to check that our ballots have been counted and tabulated correctly. Is it the case, perhaps, that ballots are supposed to be "private"…

> We could have audit-able ballots and public/private keys to check that our ballots have been counted and tabulated correctly.

With electronic voting, the bar for being able to validate vote counts is raised to requiring computer experts who understand public-key encryption.

With paper ballots, anyone who can count is able to validate votes.

Electronic voting would be prime for obfuscated attempts at influencing elections because only a handful of people would be able to verify that the machines counted votes correctly.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#33

Post by dudus »

chrisseaton wrote: post #13

> Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated? ... Why don't people demand it? Because paper is simpler and better. It works just fine in other countries. > All software has bugs. So why do you want software? What do you think the advantages are?

Are you kidding?

We just had an election amid a pandemic where electronic voting could have literally saved lives.

Then we have a president who refuses to concede and states that are still counting and recounting votes in a tight election weeks after it took place, people don't expect a final tally until December.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#34

Post by 0x262d »

The US especially is an oligarchy and for-profit US tech companies dominate the tech industry. Those same companies are atrociously anti-user and notorious for selling data etc, so people don't trust them and I don't think there is broad awareness that there could be a decent software solution. And also we could just use paper.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#35

Post by jrumbut »

sova wrote: post #23
chrisseaton wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to OP's question is... why have software at all? Why not just paper? Why do you want a 'voting machine' at all? What's wrong with paper? The solution to a problem that should not be solved with software is not to have different software.

We went from abacus to digital circuit painstakingly over thousands of years and you're using a compute-er with a screen to post this comment. There's nothing wrong with paper except its extreme inefficiency in the human realm. We could have audit-able ballots and public/private keys to check that our ballots have been counted and tabulated correctly. Is it the case, perhaps, that ballots are supposed to be "private"…

Inefficiency is a feature, having every state and every county slightly different makes systemic fraud very difficult.

All these phishing schemes that are extremely effective with IT workers and other security conscious people. I say just keep elections analog for the time being. Perhaps someday the technology will be mature, well understood, and distributed far enough to work but I don't see it happening this decade.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#36

Post by chrisseaton »

dudus wrote: post #33
chrisseaton wrote: post #13

> Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated? ... Why don't people demand it? Because paper is simpler and better. It works just fine in other countries. > All software has bugs. So why do you want software? What do you think the advantages are?

Are you kidding? We just had an election amid a pandemic where electronic voting could have literally saved lives. Then we have a president who refuses to concede and states that are still counting and recounting votes in a tight election weeks after it took place, people don't expect a final tally until December.

> Are you kidding?

No?

> We just had an election amid a pandemic where electronic voting could have literally saved lives.

The electronic voting machines the OP is talking about are still in-person. It doesn't make any difference to the risk in the pandemic.

> Then we have a president who refuses to concede

That's nothing to do with paper/electronic voting, is it?

> states that are still counting and recounting votes

Well why do they take so long? Why can it be done in hours in other countries but not in the US?

> people don't expect a final tally until December

I think a single person could count all the ballots in that time. What are they possibly doing?

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#37

Post by convolvatron »

bsenftner wrote: post #14

The reason is simple: there is no open source voting software lobbyist in Washington DC with financing for congress people's elections. Anytime a Lobbyist is partially financing a congress person's election, they get to "participate" in that congress person's legislation within the Lobbyist's area of specialization. I wager there are Lobbyists for the commercial voting systems, and that is what prevents an open sourc…

i think its stronger than this. as evidenced by the Bayh-Doyle act...culturally the US government is so heavily biased towards the profit motive that they see 'enabling business' to be much more of a goal than 'building an effective society at a tolerable cost'.

look at tax software for another perfect example.

US is pretty busted

(edit: legal publishing, maps, insurance....)

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#38

Post by xur17 »

jrumbut wrote: post #35
sova wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We went from abacus to digital circuit painstakingly over thousands of years and you're using a compute-er with a screen to post this comment. There's nothing wrong with paper except its extreme inefficiency in the human realm. We could have audit-able ballots and public/private keys to check that our ballots have been counted and tabulated correctly. Is it the case, perhaps, that ballots are supposed to be "private"…

Inefficiency is a feature, having every state and every county slightly different makes systemic fraud very difficult. All these phishing schemes that are extremely effective with IT workers and other security conscious people. I say just keep elections analog for the time being. Perhaps someday the technology will be mature, well understood, and distributed far enough to work but I don't see it happening this decade…

> Inefficiency is a feature, having every state and every county slightly different makes systemic fraud very difficult.

I agree with this - in addition, it makes it a lot easier for everyone to understand the system, and therefore more likely to trust it.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#39

Post by whimsicalism »

chrisseaton wrote: post #28
markdown wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speed, I presume. With software, you can announce the results of an election the second after polling closes. The actual paper ballot count/verification might take a week, but that's one week of uncertainty you don't have to deal with.

In the UK using paper a pretty certain estimate is available in zero seconds after polls close and accurate results are available within a few hours. Faster than the US using machines, which take a week.

As long as pre-counting is banned in some states and mail-in ballots exist, this sort of timeliness will not be possible in the US.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#40

Post by chrisseaton »

whimsicalism wrote: post #39
chrisseaton wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK using paper a pretty certain estimate is available in zero seconds after polls close and accurate results are available within a few hours. Faster than the US using machines, which take a week.

As long as pre-counting is banned in some states and mail-in ballots exist, this sort of timeliness will not be possible in the US.

Pre-counting is banned in the UK. Mail-in ballots exist in the UK. How do you think we manage it?
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