Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#21

Post by heavyset_go » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #16

godelski wrote: post #15

Everyone here is talking about paper ballots. Good, but this ignores OP's question. Most voting machines, even if they have paper trails, have some software in them. Just saying "paper ballots" doesn't address the issue. To answer OP's question, I personally have no idea but think it should be. Much of our scientific work is open sourced (e.g. codes from national labs, NASA, etc). But I think a lot of people don't un…

The answer to OP's question is... why have software at all? Why not just paper? Why do you want a 'voting machine' at all? What's wrong with paper? The solution to a problem that should not be solved with software is not to have different software.

The voting machines are already here and were in widespread use before the most recent election in the US.

I agree that paper ballots are ideal, but the machines are already in use.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#22

Post by chrisseaton » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

sebmellen wrote: post #20

chrisseaton wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to OP's question is... why have software at all? Why not just paper? Why do you want a 'voting machine' at all? What's wrong with paper? The solution to a problem that should not be solved with software is not to have different software.

We already have voting machines in use! That's the software that needs to be open-sourced.

But why? What problem do they solve? Get rid of them. Don't convert them to open-source. This is the wrong argument to be making.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#23

Post by sova » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #16

godelski wrote: post #15

Everyone here is talking about paper ballots. Good, but this ignores OP's question. Most voting machines, even if they have paper trails, have some software in them. Just saying "paper ballots" doesn't address the issue. To answer OP's question, I personally have no idea but think it should be. Much of our scientific work is open sourced (e.g. codes from national labs, NASA, etc). But I think a lot of people don't un…

The answer to OP's question is... why have software at all? Why not just paper? Why do you want a 'voting machine' at all? What's wrong with paper? The solution to a problem that should not be solved with software is not to have different software.

We went from abacus to digital circuit painstakingly over thousands of years and you're using a compute-er with a screen to post this comment. There's nothing wrong with paper except its extreme inefficiency in the human realm. We could have audit-able ballots and public/private keys to check that our ballots have been counted and tabulated correctly. Is it the case, perhaps, that ballots are supposed to be "private" and therefore we have "private" software count them?

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#24

Post by martimarkov » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #16

godelski wrote: post #15

Everyone here is talking about paper ballots. Good, but this ignores OP's question. Most voting machines, even if they have paper trails, have some software in them. Just saying "paper ballots" doesn't address the issue. To answer OP's question, I personally have no idea but think it should be. Much of our scientific work is open sourced (e.g. codes from national labs, NASA, etc). But I think a lot of people don't un…

The answer to OP's question is... why have software at all? Why not just paper? Why do you want a 'voting machine' at all? What's wrong with paper? The solution to a problem that should not be solved with software is not to have different software.

It kills trees.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#25

Post by markdown » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #16

godelski wrote: post #15

Everyone here is talking about paper ballots. Good, but this ignores OP's question. Most voting machines, even if they have paper trails, have some software in them. Just saying "paper ballots" doesn't address the issue. To answer OP's question, I personally have no idea but think it should be. Much of our scientific work is open sourced (e.g. codes from national labs, NASA, etc). But I think a lot of people don't un…

The answer to OP's question is... why have software at all? Why not just paper? Why do you want a 'voting machine' at all? What's wrong with paper? The solution to a problem that should not be solved with software is not to have different software.

Speed, I presume. With software, you can announce the results of an election the second after polling closes. The actual paper ballot count/verification might take a week, but that's one week of uncertainty you don't have to deal with.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#26

Post by chrisseaton » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

sova wrote: post #23

chrisseaton wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to OP's question is... why have software at all? Why not just paper? Why do you want a 'voting machine' at all? What's wrong with paper? The solution to a problem that should not be solved with software is not to have different software.

We went from abacus to digital circuit painstakingly over thousands of years and you're using a compute-er with a screen to post this comment. There's nothing wrong with paper except its extreme inefficiency in the human realm. We could have audit-able ballots and public/private keys to check that our ballots have been counted and tabulated correctly. Is it the case, perhaps, that ballots are supposed to be "private"…

> There's nothing wrong with paper except its extreme inefficiency in the human realm.

They aren't inefficient. In the UK (paper ballots) an accurate estimate is available when the polls close, and a certain result is available within a few hours before next morning. This is much faster than US voting machines.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#27

Post by TameAntelope » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #2

There really isn't a good case to be made for electronic voting at all. Paper is much simpler, more reliable and has none of these issues.

I know this is a naïve viewpoint, but I'm not yet totally convinced there is absolutely no way to securely enable digital elections.

Obviously I defer to the experts in the field for what is and isn't possible, but something about it scratches at the back of my mind...

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#28

Post by chrisseaton » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

markdown wrote: post #25

chrisseaton wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to OP's question is... why have software at all? Why not just paper? Why do you want a 'voting machine' at all? What's wrong with paper? The solution to a problem that should not be solved with software is not to have different software.

Speed, I presume. With software, you can announce the results of an election the second after polling closes. The actual paper ballot count/verification might take a week, but that's one week of uncertainty you don't have to deal with.

In the UK using paper a pretty certain estimate is available in zero seconds after polls close and accurate results are available within a few hours. Faster than the US using machines, which take a week.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#29

Post by sova » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

I want to be able to make sure my ballot was counted. Give me a public/private key pair when you mail me my ballot or when I leave the polls, and encrypt it in such a way that I can confirm the authenticity myself. As a software developer, I will not be convinced that this is not possible.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#30

Post by dageshi » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

koenigdavidmj wrote: post #7

LatteLazy wrote: post #2

There really isn't a good case to be made for electronic voting at all. Paper is much simpler, more reliable and has none of these issues.

Parent could be talking about the scanning and tabulation. In theory, there shouldn’t be anything problematic with “you vote on paper, and then slide it through a scanner, from whence it goes into a sealed bin”. Then you can still hand-recount.

The point about voting is it needs to be transparent, paper votes locked in a box and taken to a counting station is about as transparent a voting system as is possible, the number of links in the chain where votes can be tampered with is limited and everyone can understand how it works.

The moment you introduce any kind of electronic system into the voting or counting process nobody can understand it all anymore, there's a million lines of code and billions of transistors, nobody can validate the entire thing and even if they could, you couldn't, you'd have to trust the people can.