Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter • Hacker News Board

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#491

Post by npsimons » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:12 PM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #410

gameswithgo wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was banned from r/conservative in a discussion about trump handling the coronavirus seriously. I posted a timeline of quotes from him "only 15 cases soon to be none etc" indicating he had not taken it seriously early. Banned after that. Which is fine, I feel that people should be free to form any clubs/groups they want.

I agree broadly though I'd add two caveats: They can't do that AND profess to support free speech within their club. I think people should be able to form their groups as they like. But that doesn't mean that that group is a healthy place or that it doesn't harm wider society. I'm also not clear whether this is a group of people forming under their own initiative (as is their democratic right). Or if its actually som…

> Or if its actually some shady privately funded project by billionaires seeking to influence elections.

Let's not jump to conclusions, otherwise we are as guilty of the credulity we are casting on them (Soros bucks, anyone?). Until there is hard evidence of this, please don't bandy it about.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#492

Post by hpcjoe » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

christophilus wrote: post #421

dustinmoris wrote: post #118

In mid October I deleted almost all my tweets and likes (but Twitter being so shit they are still showing my likes except it’s not liked anymore lol) and have not been tweeting anything anymore. I found Twitter too toxic, it made me angry with people for no reason, so I deleted all my tweets and the app. No more notifications, no more “just checking Twitter quickly”. I now go to Twitter like once a day just to have a…

I’m only a very light Twitter user, but I cull and curate my feed. It’s mostly funny, positive people in fintwit now, and it’s a good experience. I almost always learn something while flicking through. But yes, I’ve found that without careful curation, it quickly turns into a depressing cesspit. Then again, that’s not unique to Twitter. I culled my contacts in the real world when in high-school and college for the sa…

I find that some of my professional colleagues are some of the most toxic posters. I've got many active filters in place, but in some cases, I've simply muted/blocked some of them.

Done the same on Facebook, which I use mostly for family communication and posting dad jokes. But again, as hard as I try to separate work / family life, colleagues want to connect and they spew the same tired BS I see elsewhere.

So, on FB, I can permanently mute them. Which, I do.

If twitter's business model was to be a toxic stew of partisan talk and censorship of "incorrect views", yeah, they nailed it.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#493

Post by leppr » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

mjfl wrote: post #482

leppr wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship is the last-resort solution. Ideally, you'd want to have control over people's education and social structures to prevent deviation before any censorship is even needed. It's a real shame, because it seems we had reached a peak with the advent of mandatory state school and television. Now things are going downhill with more and more diverse subcultures allowed to build upon themselves and explore the limit…

> Ideally, you'd want to have control over people's education and social structures to prevent deviation before any censorship is even needed. Is this satire?

It's trying to explicit and bring grandparent's ideas to their logical conclusion. I dislike slippery slope-type arguments, but I fail to see how one can coherently agree with their comment and not mine.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#494

Post by okareaman » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

My Twitter is great. I follow AI, VR, Philosophy, Zen, Mindfulness, Twertzog, etc... all high quality. Same with Facebook. I'm very happy with my feed. I follow vintage photography, various art focused groups, philosophy groups, hacker and tech groups and I've unfollowed friends who post toxic shit. I enjoy looking at Twitter and Facebook in the morning. Twitter and Facebook AI's are constantly surprising me with cool stuff they surface for me, even ads. Twitter and Facebook don't have to suck.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#495

Post by brightball » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

calinet6 wrote: post #431

motohagiography wrote: post #422

This is how the internet is supposed to work. Encounters damage, routes around it. Censorship is damage, and people are routing around it. As someone who never engaged with FB/Twitter from the beginning because I thought they were terrible ideas (all the rules, risks, and challenges of elite-level competition with none of the benefits), I was very glad to read this because this kind of divergence is precisely what cr…

I see it as the opposite: this may be how a technical network is supposed to work, but it's not how a society is supposed to work. The internet has created the ability for any given subculture to discover instant validation and reinforce their beliefs into a tribe, which further solidifies and extremifies those beliefs. It's a psychological power almost equivalent to a nuclear reaction: beliefs and ideas that might h…

While I agree with that, it all depends on which direction you look at it.

For example, how much of this reaction is caused by the earlier amplification of other ideas that would have just as easily died out?

I’ve been watching the political machine for a long time and one thing I can say for conservatives is that they are consistent in what they “say” they believe. It hasn’t changed much in years and I can at least respect that.

On the other side, there seems to be a new cause every week. Maybe it’s simply better use of technology, but most of what I see on Twitter seems to be messages designed to benefit the left. Whether it’s drawing attention to a subculture that feels marginalized or convincing that same group that everybody on the right hates them, it’s a pattern that’s really hard to deny. IMO Reddit is far worse that Twitter or FB in this respect too.

Nobody has the energy, time or capacity for the amount of things the right is supposed to hate.

I don’t think a different platform is going to change any of that. I think it’s just going to create a new channel.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#496

Post by chowells » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

mjfl wrote: post #452

calinet6 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it as the opposite: this may be how a technical network is supposed to work, but it's not how a society is supposed to work. The internet has created the ability for any given subculture to discover instant validation and reinforce their beliefs into a tribe, which further solidifies and extremifies those beliefs. It's a psychological power almost equivalent to a nuclear reaction: beliefs and ideas that might h…

So what you are recommending is that we prevent people from escaping censorship - is that right?

No. The post explicitly said that censorship isn't solving the problem and we need a better approach.

The problem is the asymmetry between bad-faith and good-faith action. In tightly-connected local societies that asymmetry is generally countered by reputation effects and limited scope of bad-faith action. In the worst cases, it's countered by societies being small enough that even when bad-faith ideas take over their spread is limited.

Technology has broken down the limitations. Information is spread by entities with no history or reputation at all (Twitter bots, for instance). The spread of bad-faith ideas is no longer limited spatially. The result of this is that obvious scams like QAnon (created to sell merchandise) thriving because there are now mechanisms to bypass all the natural limitations that used to constrain them throughout centuries of history.

Censorship is kind of like slapping a tourniquet on it. It may stop some of the worst symptoms, but it has a lot of terrible side effects and doesn't work that well anyway.

The biggest advances that need to be made are in recognizing that there is a problem in the first place, and that a "marketplace of ideas" is not equipped to deal with asymmetric bad actors. I don't know what the solution is, but "marketplace of ideas" has proven insufficient to deal with the real world. We need people to be looking for something better instead of claiming there is no problem.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#497

Post by Kye » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:18 PM UTC

mjfl wrote: post #482

leppr wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship is the last-resort solution. Ideally, you'd want to have control over people's education and social structures to prevent deviation before any censorship is even needed. It's a real shame, because it seems we had reached a peak with the advent of mandatory state school and television. Now things are going downhill with more and more diverse subcultures allowed to build upon themselves and explore the limit…

> Ideally, you'd want to have control over people's education and social structures to prevent deviation before any censorship is even needed. Is this satire?

It's fanfic of that scene in 1984 where the person (whose name I forgot) responsible for designing NewSpeak talked about how the goal was to simplify language until dissent was impossible to reason about, much less discuss.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#498

Post by 0x445442 » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:18 PM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #410

gameswithgo wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was banned from r/conservative in a discussion about trump handling the coronavirus seriously. I posted a timeline of quotes from him "only 15 cases soon to be none etc" indicating he had not taken it seriously early. Banned after that. Which is fine, I feel that people should be free to form any clubs/groups they want.

I agree broadly though I'd add two caveats: They can't do that AND profess to support free speech within their club. I think people should be able to form their groups as they like. But that doesn't mean that that group is a healthy place or that it doesn't harm wider society. I'm also not clear whether this is a group of people forming under their own initiative (as is their democratic right). Or if its actually som…

The problem is when Reddit shuts down r/conservative because they don't agree with the opinions on the sub.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#499

Post by mythrwy » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:18 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #136

ardy42 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Tech platforms are uncomfortable with certain viewpoints expressed on their platforms and seek to limit these viewpoints. For the most part, those "viewpoints" are verifiable falsehoods, conspiracy theories, and other types of disinformation and misinformation. For instance, the recent migrations to Parler are chiefly people who want to deny the legitimate US presidential election result and spread false claims…

I agree, but the situation is symmetrical. Parler is removing liberal memes (unsure if it’s automatic moderation after flagging - but that doesn’t really matter as the outcome is the same). We know which side is crazy though.

Both sides?

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#500

Post by epistasis » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:19 PM UTC

dustinmoris wrote: post #118

In mid October I deleted almost all my tweets and likes (but Twitter being so shit they are still showing my likes except it’s not liked anymore lol) and have not been tweeting anything anymore. I found Twitter too toxic, it made me angry with people for no reason, so I deleted all my tweets and the app. No more notifications, no more “just checking Twitter quickly”. I now go to Twitter like once a day just to have a…

Wow, that's rather shocking to me. I find Twitter to be a fantastic news source, with higher concentration of good links than HN, and often see stuff there far before it shows up ok HN.

The thing about Twitter is that it is entirely about who you follow, and what those people talk about and retweet. So if somebody is a source of toxicity, unfollow them. I have a very low threshold for both following and unfollowing.

This part, curating your feed, is not trivial, but it is what determines 100% of your experience. I don't blame you at all for having a bad experience and not wanting to use Twitter again! But also realize that it's not the only experience to be had there, and I think that for many, and hopefully most people, it's a positive experience.