Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter • Hacker News Board

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#461

Post by SmokeyHamster » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 2:53 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #255

We are censored every day. A newspaper editor censors their writers, your boss censors your reports, your friends censor your bar room bullshit by calling you out on it, your spouse tells you you will not argue with your brother in law again. But this is all implicit censoring - adhering to social norms through social signals (a raised eye brow, being told to buy your round and shut up) The thing is computers do not…

The problem with Facebook's censorship isn't one of scale. I think they're pretty good at censoring large numbers of people, as we've seen over the last several years.

The problem is with determining the standard by which people are censored. Currently, like most large social media companies, Facebook's standard is largely arbitrary, opaque and unequally enforced. Posting audio of Melania Trump's personal phone calls is fine, even though it violates Facebook's policy on posting someone else's personal data without their permission, but posting the contents of Hunter Biden's laptop receives an instant ban. Posting info about the Steele Dossier was fine, even though none of it was verified, but posting any articles about the Biden Ukraine scandal received bans...because none of it was verified.

I'm less concerned with censorship and more concerned with the censorship standard being uniformly applied, and right now, on most sites, it's not.

Most of the staff they use to censor people are young people with left-leaning politics, so even well meaning censors will inadvertently censor conservatives far more often and without explanation.

I think minds.com probably does censorship the best. There's a public log of what gets removed, and it can be appealed to a public group of randomly selected users to judge whether or not the removal was warranted. That's both scalable (since they don't have to hire thousands of moderators) and is responsive and accountable to the community it's trying to foster.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#462

Post by rayiner » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 2:55 PM UTC

joshuamorton wrote: post #83

nostromo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Joe Biden should not concede under any circumstances, because I think this is going to drag out” - Hillary Clinton Seems like Trump has taken her advice. At this point she really should just retire from politics and spend her hundreds of millions of dollars living the good life. She doesn’t do Democrats any favors.

So are you claiming that Clinton's suggestion that we wait until absentee ballots are included before letting someone claim victory is "disputing ... democracy", or are you trying to change the subject to something else?

Oh c’mon. “Don’t concede under any circumstances” is a lot stronger of a statement than “wait for absentee ballots to be counted.” She was reinforcing accusations that she and folks like Jerry Nadler made that Trump would try to “rig” the election.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#463

Post by calinet6 » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

mjfl wrote: post #460

Armisael16 wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last two sentences say that censorship is not a functional solution to the problem and that we need to find something better, so I’d say very definitely no. I’m not the person you responded to, of course, but I don’t see how you could’ve read their post and thought they were advocating for inescapable censorship.

"people are finding ways around it" was his main gripe with censorship.

It's not a gripe, it's a reality. I have no horse in this race other than the systemic outcome.

Censorship (or official annotation, let's call it) was an attempt to curb the tribalism or put some controls on the spread of it; I'm certainly saying that it will not work.

I can't imagine alternative solutions at this time, but we need to. It will likely be some sort of system we can't yet imagine, and it will likely need to be at the societal level of mutual agreement. Think less of controlling speech, more "wow cars can kill people, we should probably agree to some rules around driving them around."

I expect things will get much worse before those types of systems are put in place.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#464

Post by Spooky23 » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 2:57 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #422

This is how the internet is supposed to work. Encounters damage, routes around it. Censorship is damage, and people are routing around it. As someone who never engaged with FB/Twitter from the beginning because I thought they were terrible ideas (all the rules, risks, and challenges of elite-level competition with none of the benefits), I was very glad to read this because this kind of divergence is precisely what cr…

No, it’s awful and will ultimately justify creating the same government power over cyberspace that it exerts over airwaves. It a painful example of how the miracle of technology doesn’t mean tech companies can govern.

It’s hard stuff, on the one hand, if 1999 era tech was all we had, I’d likely be sick or dead as remote work wouldn’t have been possible for me. On the other, with 1999 era tech, we wouldn’t have a reality show host president fueling a pandemic to get more attention in media.

Right wing lunatics (and other fringe types) weren’t powerful in 1990 because they couldn’t broadcast their filth. They got traction because the rules were loosened for radio and angry white man radio became a thing.

You have the state of shitshow today because any lunatic can broadcast anything and gather a following.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#465

Post by calinet6 » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC

mjfl wrote: post #452

calinet6 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it as the opposite: this may be how a technical network is supposed to work, but it's not how a society is supposed to work. The internet has created the ability for any given subculture to discover instant validation and reinforce their beliefs into a tribe, which further solidifies and extremifies those beliefs. It's a psychological power almost equivalent to a nuclear reaction: beliefs and ideas that might h…

So what you are recommending is that we prevent people from escaping censorship - is that right?

No. I'm saying that censorship isn't the long-term solution here, because it's untenable from a human rights perspective as well as simply a functional perspective (people don't like it).

We'll need to find something better, but it's difficult to imagine what shape that'll take at this point.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#466

Post by _zhqs » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 2:59 PM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #382

There's a lot of mistaken assumptions and misinformation here about Parler; it looks like most of the commenters haven't actually used it, or have only given it a cursory glance. To wit: 1. Parler is actively recruiting liberals and moderates, to build a "big tent" of diverse opinions and perspectives. 2. The moderation guidelines are quite explicit: don't censor anyone for expressing a political opinion of any sort.…

I hope the following is helpful.

> actively recruiting liberals and moderates, to build a "big tent" of diverse opinions and perspectives

I wonder what the selling point is?

On the Parler "Values" page I see this:

"Regardless of race, sex, age, sexual preference, religion, politics, or dietary choices —- well , except pineapple pizza -- every user is treated equally under Parler’s Community Guidelines."

Using the phrase "sexual preference" speaks volumes. Not in a good way.

While I can see the attempt at humor ("dietary choices"), adding it to this list has at least two problems from my perspective:

- undermines the seriousness of the other categories

- makes fun of what for many is a consequence of their religious beliefs (which appears earlier in the list)

> "Do moderate.... nonsensical posts".

I don't know whether this is the Parler position, or yours, but this is going to upset a lot of people.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#467

Post by troughway » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 2:59 PM UTC

torben-friis wrote: post #336

permo-w wrote: post #325

I’m starting to think that this could actually be good news for left-leaning people. It’s entirely possible that separated from the people they usually fight against, and isolated in their own platform, conservative voices, people who have made careers out of rhetorical conflict, will begin to fight among themselves. and this can only benefit the left. It’s also very possible that Parler will only go uncensored for s…

> It’s entirely possible that separated from the people they usually fight against, and isolated in their own platform, conservative voices, people who have made careers out of rhetorical conflict, will begin to fight among themselves. The same is true for the left, isn't it? this will just increase the social bubbles we live in. Now instead of different recommendations and content shown in an app, you've got a diffe…

It's already been happening, with Glenn Greenwald, Matthew Yglesias, Taibbi and others leaving their respective companies because they can't stand the bullshit rhetoric anymore.

"The left eating itself" is a trope that goes back a number of years to JRE and others.

What a platform like Parler does is that it gives a voice to "the right" and unites it, regardless of whether they are stoking the flames of conspiracy, or are simply "conservative" in whichever way. Having your own turf is a powerful thing. After all, see Twitter and the blue checkmarks. I'm sure more of this is to come in various forms. There is also the reddit alternative Voat but I'm not sure if it took off properly at all.

I don't have a dog in this race but it's fascinating to watch it all the same.

Edit: Thanks to perardi for corrections.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#468

Post by atomi » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:00 PM UTC

thinkingemote wrote: post #321

victorbstan wrote: post #242

Bigotry and hate speech should not have a platform. I’ve been reading a lot of comments here and it seems like most of them aren’t even critical or touch on the point of NOT allowing certain kind of speech or false information sharing. In Germany nazi related sympathizing, propaganda is banned from social media. But some how it’s ok in USA? I honestly fail to understand how little criticism there is of unfettered fre…

> I honestly fail to understand Do you think its possible for you to understand? Would you want to understand and learn new things? If you knew that honestly understanding would lead to mental pain and anguish as you literally would have to admit you were wrong in your past judgements and admit your view of the world was wrong, would you still want to understand? Because it will cause you pain. It even might lose you…

We had wars over this. Bigotry lost.

Don't destroy the world over a failed ideology.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#469

Post by calinet6 » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:00 PM UTC

TravHatesMe wrote: post #451

calinet6 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it as the opposite: this may be how a technical network is supposed to work, but it's not how a society is supposed to work. The internet has created the ability for any given subculture to discover instant validation and reinforce their beliefs into a tribe, which further solidifies and extremifies those beliefs. It's a psychological power almost equivalent to a nuclear reaction: beliefs and ideas that might h…

Well said! Makes me think about the scope of tribalism before the internet. Without a doubt there was some, perhaps to a lesser degree though? I think certain views/opinions were more privately kept, perhaps shared with family members and close friends but very rarely shared with people outside their inner circle -- everything you said had your name attached to it and thus carried risks. I suppose you could write new…

Agree. It will be difficult to design such a system.

One of the reasons I strongly believe that design—not engineering technology—will be the limiting factor and defining practice for the 2020's.

Re: Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Facebook and Twitter

#470

Post by SmokeyHamster » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:00 PM UTC

permo-w wrote: post #325

I’m starting to think that this could actually be good news for left-leaning people. It’s entirely possible that separated from the people they usually fight against, and isolated in their own platform, conservative voices, people who have made careers out of rhetorical conflict, will begin to fight among themselves. and this can only benefit the left. It’s also very possible that Parler will only go uncensored for s…

I doubt that. As someone who uses a lot of these mostly-conservative sites, I'm not seeing a ton of infighting. If anything, it's been the opposite. I'm seeing it unite a bunch of different factions that used to fight.

And to be clear, Parler isn't uncensored. They still censor things. They're a business trying to attract an audience to make money, so they have to censor something just to protect the brand. Like posting a photo of literal shit. (I'm not kidding, the CEO explicitly said they'd ban posts like that) They're just a lot lighter on political censorship, since the big market demand created by Twitter has been for a platform that allows more political expression.