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I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

robdobson.com

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Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#101

Post by WalterBright »

mattlondon wrote: post #83
WalterBright wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you left the lights on and you are already in bed 1970's technology to the rescue: https://www.amazon.com/Clapper-Sound-Activated-Switch-Each/d... As for when my hands are full, elbows work just fine. If/when I become bedridden or crippled, I'll probably get Alexa. Until then, I get up and walk to the switch. It's a privilege to be able to do that, and I'll do it as long as I can.

1970s technology appears to be 3 times the price of a WiFi switch though :) (...not including 16USD delivery...) Do clappers hear through doors and across different floors? E.g. in bed upstairs and light is on downstairs? Plus would one clap not turnnoff everything that hears a clap, and not just the thing you want off but leave other things on? And can it auto clap itself off/on at certain times when you are asleep/…

You might be amused to know my car is a 1972 Dodge.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#102

Post by adriancr »

WalterBright wrote: post #98
adriancr wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note, this is what I use things but I also have dumb switches to control if things fail. I also dont put control in hard to reach places. I just use outdoor sensors + smart bulbs. Use case 1: Open all lights in yard at night when exterior gate is open or motion detected. Shut off after set amount of time of no activity. Use case 2: light in shed/basement/garage on when door is open. Use case 3: control lights via tel…

I have a couple motion sensing lights. They randomly click on and off. P.O.S.

During the day they are mostly useless outdoor.

During the night position them where there's not much infrared pollution.

I used to get random on/off from car lights reflected off home.

I used to get notifications from cats and birds too in the middle of the night.

I got small aqara sensors that you just glue to places and just moved them around until I got good spots.

Also, if they go on they just turn on lights so not much of an issue. Alarm is not driven by them but by smarter cameras.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#103

Post by greggman3 »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #38

I stayed clear of smart appliances for a long time for the reasons I'm sure we're all well aware of. However, recently we had our central heating boiler changed and my partner was very keen on having Hive. It's almost useless. I can't believe how incompetently it seems to have been designed. Essentially there are three parts, a receiver connected to the boiler, a network bride connected to the router and the thermost…

Do you think your partner will opt for the less techie option next time or do they incurable gadget lust (like many of us have to fight within ourselves)

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#104

Post by Freak_NL »

stinos wrote: post #84
WalterBright wrote: post #56

I wouldn't buy a house with such a system in it, and I doubt anybody else will, either. Who wants to become an expert on these systems just to turn the lights on? Not a chance. I considered these systems when my house was built, and am very glad I didn't get them. I turn the switch on, the lights go on, I turn it off, the lights go off. I replace a bulb now and then. That's it! I'm very happy with it. But what I did…

the electrician didn't understand words like "crosstalk" Can you explain what the problem is? I also run cat5 (or maybe even cat6, don't remember) to every room, most even multiple times, just put it in walls/cailings/whatever worked and all 40 or so sockets work just fine. I turn the switch on, the lights go on, I turn it off, the lights go off. I run a star configuration for switches and light points, where all swi…

40 sockets is pretty impressive. Running cat-something (I got CAT6) everywhere makes absolute sense though! Especially now that everyone and their dog is working from home, and I live in a typical nineteen-thirties Dutch street with terrace housing, not having to rely on wifi too much is pretty awesome.

I think by now I've got rid of all the R59 cable sockets and POTS stuff too except for one POTS socket in the cabinet that holds the fuse box. If anyone ever wants to reintroduce a wired telephone they can just reuse a CAT6 cable, but I doubt this will happen.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#105

Post by baybal2 »

Spare_account wrote: post #17
baybal2 wrote: post #3

Worked on a project for Kazakhstani real estate company to make a cheap "smart home" solution. Went for 100% wired installation exactly because of that. Second problem was every "star" topology hugely increases wiring cost, so a bus it was, and with bus came a problem of software MAC not being performant enough even to send audio, electrical isolation, CSMA... Long story I can't wait for 802.3cg

>Long story It sounds like a story I'd like to hear more of, if you've the time

Ok, here it is:

1. Wireless is off for so many reasons.

Even if cost wouldn't be a problem, wireless has many other disadvantages.

First, it's not really wireless, you need to wire power, and cut walls.

Second, most of devices will spend their life deep in the junction box, or even cemented inside the wall. Having an external antenna for every one of them is impractical.

Third, no wireless standard is even 1/10th as reliable as wire. They are simply too complex.

Fourth, you want to have backup power for such vital things like HVAC in highrises without windows, security, and fire alarms, emergency water, and electricity cutoff, door locks, and intercom. This way, you need to have wiring anyways.

2. Star topology as I said hugely increase costs through: additional labour, cabling, cutting walls, switches, bigger junction boxes.

Main idea is that you don't want the builder to have to cut walls when they can not to.

2. For busses you have no alternative to CAN, or RS485 based busses, or multidrop ethernet hacks. Third is off because it's expensive (think of having 3 port T hubs for every device.) First is off because of bad hardware selection.

So we are left with many hacky RS485 based solutions.

Choose your poison:

Unreliable CSMA

Manual addressing

Super low performance

Polled nature

Near no existing ecosystem

In the end, MODBUS with hacks it was. The lesser of all evils.

4. It being a bus, and you having devices connected to other appliances, you have to provide electrical, and I/O isolation, as you don't want a random man plugging 220VAC into it in error, or deliberately frying all electronics in the highrise.

That's hugely expensive, and sometimes you want to power external devices through your box.

This necessitates to invent many case-by case compromise solutions.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#106

Post by greggman3 »

adriancr wrote: post #95
Maha-pudma wrote: post #61

I don't get it. What's the point in these systems? Genuinely. Why would I ever need this? Just like a "smart" doorbell, fridge, meter. I would love for someone to be able to explain the benefits to me over the normal, cheap, completely working "dump" version. The only "smart" device I own is a TV and it is crap, worse thing I've ever bought.

Note, this is what I use things but I also have dumb switches to control if things fail. I also dont put control in hard to reach places. I just use outdoor sensors + smart bulbs. Use case 1: Open all lights in yard at night when exterior gate is open or motion detected. Shut off after set amount of time of no activity. Use case 2: light in shed/basement/garage on when door is open. Use case 3: control lights via tel…

I have been fortunate to have never been flooded but I'm curious if you got the alarm would the situation turn out much better than if you didn't?

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#107

Post by WalterBright »

Freak_NL wrote: post #104
stinos wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the electrician didn't understand words like "crosstalk" Can you explain what the problem is? I also run cat5 (or maybe even cat6, don't remember) to every room, most even multiple times, just put it in walls/cailings/whatever worked and all 40 or so sockets work just fine. I turn the switch on, the lights go on, I turn it off, the lights go off. I run a star configuration for switches and light points, where all swi…

40 sockets is pretty impressive. Running cat-something (I got CAT6) everywhere makes absolute sense though! Especially now that everyone and their dog is working from home, and I live in a typical nineteen-thirties Dutch street with terrace housing, not having to rely on wifi too much is pretty awesome. I think by now I've got rid of all the R59 cable sockets and POTS stuff too except for one POTS socket in the cabin…

I didn't put any POTS cable in the house, but ran two cat5 cables to each room. One for POTS, the other for network. The configuration is done at the star hub. Cat5 is just fine for POTS.

These days, of course, I don't use the POTS much.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#108

Post by hondadriver »

jackweirdy wrote: post #92
vr46 wrote: post #27

What is the point of trying to wirelessly link up a system that needs so much wiring in the first place, including electricity? This seems moronic, unless it’s for fun. And even then it’s pretty stupid.

Retrofitting new wires to every light fixture and switch in a house is unenviable. In some cases, impossible. Laminate floors can deprive you of subfloor access of a whole floor, running cables through existing stud walls is difficult at the best of times... Wirelessly linked smoke alarms are becoming extremely common now in the UK because outside a narrow envelope building regulations want linked alarms (linked eith…

And as I mentioned in another comment, many EU houses have concrete (internal) walls. Tubes for electricity wires come pre-installed in them so together with the other things mentioned, just running some wires can be hard to say the least.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#109

Post by thom »

sfev wrote: post #99

I’ve been using lightwaverf for around 10 years now and find it to be a decent solution. I originally bought a light switch and some of their pass through plugs, but recently I’ve been expanding with more light switches and a relay, mostly to control hard-to-reach-the-switch things like outside lights but now I’m thinking about replacing more indoor lights and sockets for a more complete solution Lighting-wise their…

This is exactly the sort of system I was picturing while reading the article, glad to hear it exists and works well!

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#110

Post by bhickey »

hondadriver wrote: post #100
WalterBright wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crosstalk is when two wires are close together, one induces a voltage in the other (it's how transformers work). The trouble with house wiring is if you run a phone line parallel and close to an A/C line, it will induce a 60 cycle hum in the phone line, which will drive you utterly mad. The electrician was installing the cat3 phone wires in the same holes as the A/C wires. It was guaranteed to induce a hum. The corre…

Here in The Netherlands and probably other parts of Europe, you are not allowed to run electricity and network or phone cables through the same tubes. Also the number of wires allowed in a single tube is limited. Many houses have concrete walls, floors and ceilings, so you don't run extra tubes easily... Reconfiguring switches is next to impossible and via existing switch wires you can dim/switch the lights but not c…

Conduit isn't very common in US residential construction. Electricians will generally cut a hole in the drywall, drill a hole in the floor plate and tack the cabling to the framing.
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