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A court ruling in Austria could censor the internet worldwide

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Re: A court ruling in Austria could censor the internet worldwide

#31

> The case started with an April 2016 Facebook post, in which a user shared an article featuring a photo of Eva Glawischnig-Piesczek, then-chair of Austria’s Green Party, along with commentary labeling her a “lousy traitor,” “corrupt oaf,” and member of a “fascist party,” apparently in response to her immigration policies. This is core, protected speech in the United States. But it was deemed defamation under Austria…

> has there been another Western democracy more tested and compared to Orwell's 1984 in the last 5 years than the US? None of those people are in jail. And that regime, despite its best efforts, is being peacefully removed from power. America is the world’s oldest [EDIT: large, old] extant democracy. I wouldn’t lightly consider toying with something so basic as free speech. Several European and Asian democracies are…

> America is the world’s oldest extant democracy.

That would be San Marino.

The U.S. Constitution is the oldest constitution still in force. But we're still pretty young as democracies go. Hell, we haven't even been around as long as one of the first libertarian states, the Icelandic Commonwealth, was.

Re: A court ruling in Austria could censor the internet worldwide

#32

> The case started with an April 2016 Facebook post, in which a user shared an article featuring a photo of Eva Glawischnig-Piesczek, then-chair of Austria’s Green Party, along with commentary labeling her a “lousy traitor,” “corrupt oaf,” and member of a “fascist party,” apparently in response to her immigration policies. This is core, protected speech in the United States. But it was deemed defamation under Austria…

> has there been another Western democracy more tested and compared to Orwell's 1984 in the last 5 years than the US? There have been probing tests of the nature of free speech laws in a number of countries outside the US in recent years, notably the potential transgender pronoun compulsion laws that landed Jordan Peterson in trouble in Canada, as well as a number of tried or in trial cases in places like the UK[0] a…

> notably the potential transgender pronoun compulsion laws

Which, in my opinion, go clearly a step farther than just censoring offensive language. I can understand the latter to some degree, but forcing people to replace certain words in their communication only differs from Orwell's dystopia in the size of the dictionary.

It's a dilemma: huge communities like Facebook cannot really be moderated effectively and are a fertile ground for disinformation, conspiracy theories and spreading hate. At the same time we don't want to limit speech more than absolutely necessary.

To me it's clear we simply are not (yet?) mentally prepared for information exchange and communities in this global magnitude. It can be positive when followers of a niche hobby can get together, but the same mechanism is dangerous in contact with targeted disinformation campaigns and cults.

Re: A court ruling in Austria could censor the internet worldwide

#33

> The case started with an April 2016 Facebook post, in which a user shared an article featuring a photo of Eva Glawischnig-Piesczek, then-chair of Austria’s Green Party, along with commentary labeling her a “lousy traitor,” “corrupt oaf,” and member of a “fascist party,” apparently in response to her immigration policies. This is core, protected speech in the United States. But it was deemed defamation under Austria…

The arguments that the kind of speech referred to in the article is worth defending are really weak. Sure: there is no question that free speech in general is a useful tool in increasing transparency and thus public enlightenment - thus protections in general aren't in question. Yet the defenders of absolute or unconditional protection repeatedly - as in this article - make remarkably poorly supported claims.

The first poorly supported claim is that because it's supported in the US, it's worth supporting. This is just weird; frankly. If US laws were perfect, society would be a lot more stable, and you might as well abolish congress. Clearly, laws are not perfect; and where there are regional legal differences, you should not assume the US protections make sense - nor in fact that either approach makes sense. It's frankly irrelevant what US law is on the topic of what protected speech should be.

The second, and more fundamental error in reasoning is that somehow a slippery slope applies, or by extension that you can't expect a court (or other control mechanism) to be able to tell harmful speech from constructive speech. Obviously, there will be some corner-cases where decisions will be essentially arbitrary - but that applies in any system, including the US. But what's not at all obvious is that those close calls actually happen very often, nor that they matter much when they do. There's usually wide, clear distinction between what's essentially malicious deception (as in this case) and possible truths that deserve protection. In practice it just doesn't happen all that often that something is possibly both. Here too: you could argue whether or not the posts in question are harmful enough to deserve a ban; but there's no argument that they were truthful and worth protecting; they clearly were not. To summarize: the idea that legal controls on deception or defamation will to a meaningful extent do collateral damage to free speech which increases transparency simply does not appear to be true. Sure, a despot could do both, but a normal society can choose not to do that just fine too.

The third (implicit) reasoning flaw is that what we have today is actually free speech. This misunderstanding rests on several pillars. Firstly we should not ignore harms caused by libel laws, especially in a country like the US, where legal costs can be punishment alone, regardless of legal victory, and where legal standards differ by state allowing jurisdiction shopping. Secondly, we should realize that speech needs protection from power in general, not specifically government alone. Much later modern-style free speech developed into a roughly modern form, corporations evolved. Corporations may deserve some protection from the government, but they themselves wield enormous power too, and speech needs protection from their interference too. Finally, the protections we do have are quite... abstract. They're not sufficient to protect speech in practice, not by a long shot - just witness how abominably whistle-blowers are treated. Rather than the essence of communication and transparency being protected, we protect technicalities. We may not technically live under a massive censorship regime, but that's just because we've interpreted self-censorship and corporate control as being something fundamentally different - and that's dangerous, because we're not protecting speech as some kind of academic exercise to create aesthetically pleasing laws; we're doing it to protect public discourse and transparency. And we're not doing that as is.

We really need to move towards a healthy debate on free speech itself. The principle is clearly sound, but our implementation of it is equally clearly not sound. And that holds true just as much in other countries; this isn't some US-specific problem - because pretty much anywhere in the west it's OK to lie about (say) vaccine dangers without any repercussions even though evidence-free conspiracies of that kind do real harm to everyone in society. Yet if you defame someone - just one person! Well, that's apparently not OK, we need to protect individuals from libel? Even if there's any sense in that (I doubt it), it sure doesn't appear to do us much good regardless. There's a reason why e.g. plutocrats such as Putin thought it was worth interfering in foreign public opinion: precisely because he thought freedom of speech does not work well in the countries he tried to manipulate; freedom of speech would not prevent malicious lies from spreading through the public. And you know what? Putin's right.

As such, while it's fair contrast the US approach to that of others, I think doing so is akin to worrying about really marginal issues (e.g. exactly where to draw the line between defamation of a politician vs. protected opinions about that politician just doesn't matter much: there are lots of possible lines, and most are just fine). The more fundamental issues are broadly similar - and deeply unhealthy - in all western countries.

Re: A court ruling in Austria could censor the internet worldwide

#34
post #3

That's quite the problem we are in, as a global society. Obviously no one wants to give North Korea any say about what can and what cannot be published in the web. But between sovereign, free, democratic societies, different standards might exist. And if you want to do business with, say, the EU as, say, a US tech company you cannot expect US law and commons to apply everywhere. Then it becomes a race to the bottom i…

> Obviously no one wants to give North Korea any say about what can and what cannot be published in the web. But between sovereign, free, democratic societies, different standards might exist.

The problem is that whether a country can enforce its speech restrictions against outsiders has very little to do with how much we agree with them. If you don't want to follow the law of North Korea, you'll lose access to the North Korean market. Which nobody cares about, so nobody follows them. But what happens when it's China?

The solution is for laws to apply to the location of the host and provide no assistance to anyone who wants to do otherwise. Then you can host your criticisms of politicians in the US and your violations of US prudery in Germany. That isn't a race to the bottom, it's a race to the top. It's the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it, as intended.

Re: A court ruling in Austria could censor the internet worldwide

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are you supposed to do when a politician is corrupt or fascist, if you aren't allowed to talk about it? In the same country (Austria) a court actually ruled that a certain right-wing politician can be said to be close to nazi ideology due to the existing evidence. So, you are allowed to talk about it, but you might get problems if you don't have a basis for your claims.

So in Austria you're not allowed to insult a politician unless a court agrees with your insult? That's incredibly fascist.

This isn't specific to politicians. Calling someone a fascist in public(meaning 10+ witnesses I think) is considered defamation and, yes, if you cannot prove such claims it can have consequences.

Note that this does not apply to just any kind of insult as you say. It's for cases when it's considered harmful for one's public image, as usual with defamation. I've never heard of a simple "Idiot!" leading to any consequences. I don't know why it's "incredibly fascist" to win a defamation case when someone called you a fascist in the open. Though I do admit that it's hard to draw a clear line with these things, and there are arguments for both sides as long as it doesn't steer towards censorship.

Re: A court ruling in Austria could censor the internet worldwide

#36
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really see no problem with states demanding that their censorship laws apply world wide?

People here don't because the attitude here is "it's Facebook so fuck them".

Which I don't really understand, it's an attempt at global censorship, that's the concern. But as it's a ruling against Facebook the general impression I get is casual dismissal

Re: A court ruling in Austria could censor the internet worldwide

#37

Didn’t France try this with their right to be forgotten [1]? How did that go? EDIT: Paris was told to go stuff it [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jul/30/google-re...

Pretty well given how it is now part of GDPR.

Re: A court ruling in Austria could censor the internet worldwide

#38
post #37

Didn’t France try this with their right to be forgotten [1]? How did that go? EDIT: Paris was told to go stuff it [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jul/30/google-re...

Pretty well given how it is now part of GDPR.

> given how it is now part of GDPR

Does GDPR try to assert extraterritoriality?

Austria requiring information be scrubbed from the Austrian Google is one thing. Austria censoring America’s search results is another.

Re: A court ruling in Austria could censor the internet worldwide

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in Austria you're not allowed to insult a politician unless a court agrees with your insult? That's incredibly fascist.

This isn't specific to politicians. Calling someone a fascist in public(meaning 10+ witnesses I think) is considered defamation and, yes, if you cannot prove such claims it can have consequences. Note that this does not apply to just any kind of insult as you say. It's for cases when it's considered harmful for one's public image, as usual with defamation. I've never heard of a simple "Idiot!" leading to any conseque…

These things could easily end up in ECHR, because a "fascist", just like an "idiot", could be considered an opinion, judgement, not a fact and so it cannot be false, unless it means something very specific in Austria.

Re: A court ruling in Austria could censor the internet worldwide

#40
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't specific to politicians. Calling someone a fascist in public(meaning 10+ witnesses I think) is considered defamation and, yes, if you cannot prove such claims it can have consequences. Note that this does not apply to just any kind of insult as you say. It's for cases when it's considered harmful for one's public image, as usual with defamation. I've never heard of a simple "Idiot!" leading to any conseque…

These things could easily end up in ECHR, because a "fascist", just like an "idiot", could be considered an opinion, judgement, not a fact and so it cannot be false, unless it means something very specific in Austria.

It doesn't mean anything else in Austria, but do keep in mind Austria as well as Germany is still sensitive about such topics due to their past, which is also why denying the holocaust or doing the Hitler salute is illegal.

Which doesn't mean there aren't some stupid, backwards laws that have no place in today's society, like for example the blasphemy law which weirdly still exists. There will always be room for improvement and it's never wrong to question established rules.

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