Your Computer Isn't Yours • Hacker News Board

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#721

Post by kimjongtrill » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 11:46 PM UTC

qayxc wrote: post #660

daniellarusso wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the parent just meant the surprise at the lack of enthusiasm, based on the ubiquity of the technology/device. Perhaps it is considered more of a commodity now?

> Perhaps it is considered more of a commodity now? It is and it should be. What the white beards all too often forget is the fact that the generation before them would say the exact same thing about them (lack of enthusiasm, lack of interest and knowledge, etc.). This is a story as old as time: > The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love cha…

> It's hard to get young people enthusiastic about glue or forging metals, even though both are essential to our daily lives - often in ways we don't even realise. Same deal, no whining from metallurgists or chemists.

that is perhaps the most poignant take on this i have come across in a while. thanks that got the cogs turning in... different directions. i do need to ease up. :)

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#722

Post by illys » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 11:49 PM UTC

I read here a lot of nostalgia of the 80's and 90's computers that were open to users' curiosity and changes, helping teenagers and young adults to develop computer and programming skills... It is true but it is only a part of the story.

For me, the real issue today is not much the disappearance of opportunities to practice and to learn: some of you noted the availability of open source, single board computers, cheap hardware, free software... and even the presence of a free JavaScript engine on all devices.

No, the real issue when you have a computer flavor (PC, phone, tablet...) in hands is that there are too many distractions. In the past, you could get bored in front of your computer and look for new challenges: trying new stuff, trying some programmation, changing files... Now, you can switch from an unlimited stock of games, to an unlimited volume of press, to an unlimited volume of video, to an unlimited volume of discussions, to an unlimited volume of films and series...

There is no place to get bored and look for new challenges. It even takes a strong will to refuse to engage with these stocks and keep programming and experimenting.

I see it everyday with my teenager: I have a hard time stopping the brainwashing of day-long poor social discussions, shopping, video and series on a small phone screen. They are consumers instead of being actors. And when the phone is off, they are just lost, unable to engage in anything.

To come back to the article, these machines are not only technical jails, they are also little mind-jails.

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#723

Post by squarefoot » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 1:48 AM UTC

cutler wrote: post #717

greyhair wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing wrong with teaching Python as an introduction to programming methods and data, then diving deeper. My son started with Python in his Junior year of high school and as a senior is now learning Java. It is just top down learning, instead of bottom up. For programming, I think either works. I just happened to learn the other direction because of the year (early 1980s). On CP/M, you had a macro assembler…

My university course in 1980 started with Pascal and Fortran along with Niklaus Wirth's "Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs".

Excellent book! Although written with Pascal in mind, it became really useful to me. Always brought it at work along with the K&R 2nd Ed. and the famous TCP/IP networking book by W. Richard Stevens.

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#724

Post by jeegsy » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 1:53 AM UTC

rmoriz wrote: post #587

cj wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people have to get used to seeing computers as closed-source devices with app stores Consider all of the school age kids using chromebooks, many of them their 1st computer. Will they care in 10 years as adults that their Mac doesn't allow programs to be installed from "untrusted sources"? Unfortunately, this transition probably won't phase them.

They won't be able to build a disruptive startup or a modest lifestyle business anymore without having to pay upfront and play by the rules of big tech. But nobody will be so they won't feel that something was taken away from them.

This actually describes my feelings about all this at the moment. I imagine that now and in the future, the 2 Steve scenario in the "garage" will be next to impossible

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#725

Post by jeegsy » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 2:09 AM UTC

jagged-chisel wrote: post #359

beardedscotsman wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft tried this with Windows RT. It didn’t go down well at all. The slow burn might be what’s needed, but if they do this, it could damage why people still buy macs vs just buying iPads. Lets see, time will tell here.

I don't think Apple would object to everyone dropping Macs and buying just iPads.

They have had ads in the recent past to that effect

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#726

Post by arcticbull » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 2:18 AM UTC

cassepipe wrote: post #202

est31 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every company I've worked at for the last 10 years has developed exclusively on macOS. There are probably also plenty of companies which exclusively develop on Windows. You can have an entire career in the embedded industry, target Linux all the time, but never use it for development. Development is not all Linux based, I never said that. What I quoted were percentages. > it should be widely accepted in spite of be…

+1 for the printer story. Linux was plug and play. On windows... Uuuugh.

macOS uses CUPS :)

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#727

Post by est31 » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 2:25 AM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #673

vetinari wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For macOS, you also have to buy the right hardware. You cannot throw it at random $300 Acer garbage either.

You probably could if they'd let you heh, it's really well optimized, and works great on 5 year old Apple hardware with much worse specs than a $300 modern Acer. This is especially true as low-end cheap devices tend to be much more "standard" -- no exotic hardware.

How good the specs are doesn't matter for most driver bugs. Instead, it's important which components you use. And even if cheaper devices use "standard" hardware, they still use a much larger variety than the few models that Apple releases.

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#728

Post by est31 » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 2:26 AM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #726

cassepipe wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 for the printer story. Linux was plug and play. On windows... Uuuugh.

macOS uses CUPS :)

I wonder whether it'll continue using it. I remember some drama about the maintainer leaving apple and then forking it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24831162

Anyways, the claim was that Windows and Mac are way better than Linux and it doesn't even compare. My anecdote shows that it's not always the case :).

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#729

Post by swat535 » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 3:07 AM UTC

slazaro wrote: post #312

GuB-42 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gen Z can get real general-purpose computers with a development environment for cheap. The new Raspberry Pi 400 is a modern take on home computers like the C64, but 15 times cheaper. Pi 400 full kit: $100, C64: $595 (1982) / $1576 (inflation adjusted for 2019). The computers are not just getting cheaper, educative material is easier than ever to find. Because modern computers are much more complex and do much more th…

I think the point is that before, if you had a computer, you had the ability to inspect, modify and program, and with curiosity you'd learn. Now, most people get computers where those things are forbidden. You still can get "programmable" computers, but you have to do it explicitly. Before, it was implicit. So there's a filter that some people won't pass and won't learn, and the pool of people shrinks.

Eh, I mean the kids who are passionate about how systems work will find a way to dig deep. I don't think this is going away with lock-down systems regardless.

The only thing it will do is make it easier for the general public to work with machines and the masses never cared to begin with and to be frank that's a good thing. They are less likely to install malware and cause trouble for themselves.

Plus you're forgetting that these companies still need engineers to build and maintain their infrastructure so it's not like the knowledge is going to disappear, never mind the fact that the corporations heavily rely on OSS.

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#730

Post by bitwize » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 3:33 AM UTC

20-year-old, Slashdot-weaned me would have been outraged at this. 43-year-old me shrugs his shoulders and says "so?"

You own the hardware -- a hunk of very expensive sand. But much of the stuff on the computer, whether software or content, you don't own. The OS belongs to Apple. The apps belong to ISVs and the books, games, movies, and music you download or stream belong to the publishers of those things. So you really have no right to any more functionality in the device than is advertised and provided; and not only that, but the various rightsholders are entitled to the protection of their rights.

To the creative class, there are few evils greater than piracy, and to allow for devices that can perform arbitrary computation without restrictions that protect their interests is to give free rein to Satan himself. Such devices are to authors, as the saying goes, like the Boston Strangler is to the woman home alone. And most end users don't care how locked down or DRM'd their devices are. So this is the new reality.

In fact, it is not preposterous to imagine a world in which general-purpose computers are flat out ruled illegal by a court. The only thing that saved the VCR in the Betamax case was the fact that it could be used for time-shifting which, under very limited circumstances, could be considered fair use. A court may decide that in an environment where most users' computing needs are met by locked-down devices, those who sell devices that are not locked down are committing contributory infringement.