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They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

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Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#291

Post by wnkrshm »

Digory wrote: post #243
the-dude wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which west? Which norms?

1. It's fair to say the President was outmatched by the job. If he wanted to be a dictator, he was incompetent. But the damage to the immediate office of the president is worth considering. No honest person wants to work close to this man, and that's new. 2. The media, in new and unusual ways, has abandoned the goal of neutrality in reporting. 3. The university and corporate culture is overwhelmed with demands for ev…

I don't think Trump damaged the office of the president or the institutions. He's actually a quality tester (or a malicious user), the flaws in the institutions were there before, he's the first to abuse them in this way.

Security and anti-terror laws, as well as propaganda for the Iraq war and other militant and jingoistic opinions were the beginning of this.

If the flaws aren't fixed, the US may get a competent dictator within our lifetimes.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#292

Post by lisper »

orangecat wrote: post #259
lisper wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things ar…

the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear Hillary Clinton has been claiming that Trump's election was illegitimate for years: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trum... . 66% of Democrats believe that Russia directly hacked and manipulated vote counts in the 2016 election: https://today.yougov.com/top…

> Trump's election was illegitimate

But she does not deny the fact that he did win. She's just saying that he won because of dirty tricks (voter suppression, intentional promulgation of falsehoods), which is plausible. Certainly within the bounds of an opinion one could legitimately hold.

> 66% of Democrats believe that Russia directly hacked and manipulated vote counts in the 2016 election

Sure. A fair percentage of Democrats would probably say that they think that Trump is Satan incarnate. That doesn't change the fact that Democrats do in fact recognize the fact that Trump won the 2016 election. Republicans by and large are not conceding that Biden has won the 2020 election. (They also deny basic facts about climate change, COVID, etc.)

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#293

Post by augustt »

RestlessMind wrote: post #290
lisper wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things ar…

Left denies basic facts about: 1. Trump's legitimate election in 2016 - see all the hysterical reactions like "Not my president" protests or urging faithless elector to vote for anyone else but trump route or "Russia-gate" (left's Benghazi?) or the impeachment farce. (I don't think I need to provide any citations here). 2. Illegal immigration - left doesn't acknowledge that this is a problem. And then you see left's…

Read the Ukraine transcript and say it wasn't a flagrant abuse of power with a straight face.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#294

Post by [deleted] »

ip26 wrote: post #270
panax wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was not referring to any specific group of people. And you are right, there has been a great deal of attention and action. I think it is a healthy sign and may be a reason for cautious optimism, but this is a continuous effort and we need to remain vigilant.

Mostly I'm reflecting on how I had understood this document previously. I'd read portions before 2016, and I'm now thinking it was not quite precise enough. Maybe I'd revise your statement like this: Authoritarianism rises gradually and relies on [a critical mass of] people looking away from it, unable to confront inconvenient truths. The story of Germany paints a picture where no one speaks up. Yet, as we've seen it…

[deleted]

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#295

Post by solarhoma »

jolux wrote: post #104
solarhoma wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s amazing. The top reply to his post does just this.

I care more about what is true than I care about trying to provide false balance between unequal positions. If you see me as missing the message, so be it. A request to treat "both sides" of this situation as equals is a request to ignore reality, which I refuse to do.

You are, again, simply speaking of your own reality. Simply because you hold an idea to be true does not make that idea true. This is not mathematics. You cannot ‘prove‘ one side to be true. This applies to my side as well as yours.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#296

Post by majormajor »

throwawayxyz123 wrote: post #247
panax wrote: post #142

The most chilling part is "But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on th…

> ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33 Racially charged ownership stickers. Many added to protect from racially charged vandalism. A familiar sight in 2020 USA. On the streets and online. Does your favorite open source project sport an out of place racial banner? True, the confidence of those in power in their ability to harm their targets increases gradually. But make no mistake, using bl…

It's curious you identify protests from those NOT in power, who are ABUSED by those in power, as "abuse of power by those in power."

That's such a big stretch it's not even a stretch, just some blatantly perverted spin attempt to associate a movement you don't like with basically the opposite of it. Consider that we aren't that far from the times of "whites only" establishments here... you posit that somehow we've come full circle when actually the folks in power today have a lot of continuity with the ones in power then.

The shamelessness of the propaganda here to prop up the existing power structures is breathtaking.

(Doesn't it seem like a strong Jewish Lives Matter movement may have helped prevent some of these German government abuses?)

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#297

Post by dang »

jolux wrote: post #279
throwaway201103 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you overlooked a multi-year investigation and failed impeachment over the notion that the president in collusion with Russia interfered with the '16 election?

The impeachment succeeded but the senate refused to even investigate so he wasn't convicted.

This has gotten extremely off topic, and in the worst direction: generic, tedious, partisan flamewar. You posted 41 comments moving the thread in this undesirable direction. Could you please refrain from doing that here? The more threads go in this direction, the more off topic for HN they become.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I'm not disagreeing with you, I respect your views and feelings and the importance of the issues. But HN's mandate is curious, thoughtful conversation about topics of intellectual interest. When the thread gets reaches this degree of fiery political minutiae, it has left that far behind. In fact it's at the far end of the solution space from ontopicness.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#298

Post by wnkrshm »

throwawayabc456 wrote: post #286
joeberon wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an out of place racial banner Are you talking about black lives matter here? If so that is the total opposite of what they meant. That is literally anti-authoritarian, anti-police killing innocent black people.

[flagged]

People fighting for their rights always seems like an attack on the comfortable majority.

At one point in history people were fighting to have two days off per week, or to not have to work 17h a day, or to not have children working on machines or in mines.

These moves we regard as proper and justified today were just as much an affront to the social norms as you feel this may be now.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#299

Post by andrewclunn »

bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

[dead]

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#300

Post by lisper »

RestlessMind wrote: post #290
lisper wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things ar…

Left denies basic facts about: 1. Trump's legitimate election in 2016 - see all the hysterical reactions like "Not my president" protests or urging faithless elector to vote for anyone else but trump route or "Russia-gate" (left's Benghazi?) or the impeachment farce. (I don't think I need to provide any citations here). 2. Illegal immigration - left doesn't acknowledge that this is a problem. And then you see left's…

> Illegal immigration - left doesn't acknowledge that this is a problem

It certainly does. That's why the left supports policies like DACA.

The disagreement is not about whether or not illegal immigration is a problem. The disagreement is very much about what the right way to fix the problem is, which is well within the bounds of legitimate policy disagreement.

> rent control doesn't work

Of course it does. Rent control keeps rents from going up. Whether or not this is desirable, or whether it has undesirable ancillary effects that outweigh the benefits, is again the subject of legitimate disagreement over policy.

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