They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) • Hacker News Board

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#251

Post by samizdis » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:54 PM UTC

panax wrote: post #142

The most chilling part is "But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on th…

There's an introspective journal written about the run-up to WWII, which although personal also takes in societal and political observations, by Louis MacNeice, called Autumn Journal. In it, he writes:

And the individual, powerless, has to exert the

Powers of will and choice

And choose between enormous evils, either

Of which depends on somebody else’s voice.

It's, maybe, 80 or so pages of poetry, but imo well worth reading. It's available, among other places, at the Internet Archive:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.184237

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#252

Post by haberman » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:55 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #205

_iyig wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are probably referring to a separate shooting death in CHOP, that of Lorenzo Anderson. I am referring to the murder of Antonio Mays Jr. by antifa security. This murder was filmed from multiple angles and recordings are widely available. Short clips from several of the vantage points (skip to roughly 1:40 - warning, disturbing): https://youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=_K0tXOBPMHA

Not really sure what I saw on that video. It's a mess. The last I heard Antonio Mays murder was an active investigation with no arrests made: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/everybody-down-wha... If it's an open and shut case and the shooter is clearly identifiable why is that? Is the Seattle Police in on this conspiracy? I of course assumed you meant the other kid because the murderer was actually, yknow,…

My understanding is that the shooter is not clearly identifiable, but people that night were bragging on Twitter about the "beautiful shot placement" by "security on the ground": https://twitter.com/EffInvictus/status/1277828963369353216/p...

Video taken in the aftermath captures people discussing how they will collect and hide the evidence. Seattle Police found and questioned the woman who filmed that video, but she told them she didn't know anything: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/woman-releas...

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#253

Post by watwut » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:57 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #170

Tostino wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can find people of any background who will spout contradictory rhetoric. I don't think you're making this argument in good faith. 2016 was a whole lot closer than 2020, and Clinton conceded and there was no serious calculated attempt to overturn the election results by either the public at large, or people who had any power to do so. Equating that with what's going on now does not seem like an argument made in go…

I was hanging out in lefty circles in 2016; the faithless electorate idea was wildly popular, as was the "the popular vote should win." These were the last hope for many who were previously so confident.

The popular vote should win is still popular on left. In large part because both Clinton on Biden won popular vote.

And partly because they don't count as real Americans in popular rhetoric and are getting increasingly ressentful about that.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#254

Post by watwut » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 7:06 PM UTC

OminousWeapons wrote: post #166

jolux wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody's saying they don't have a right to challenge irregularities, but many government officials say this was the most secure election in American history and deny any evidence of systemic fraud: https://apnews.com/article/top-officials-elections-most-secu...

I agree it was a secure election. What I mean to say is that this is a perception issue. There is a belief along many on the right that elements of the civil service, the media, and the educated classes are strongly biased against Donald Trump and would like to undermine him. To be honest, they are probably right (although I would argue that the bias is warranted given Trump's abysmal job performance). They therefore…

Trump was not prevented access to court. He and his prior are however not allowed to make public claims about fraud unopposed. The patience you suggest would lead to public that hears what he says, but does not hear about claims being bogus.

The kind of pacification you call about is not something Trump or republican party awarded to anyone last 4 years. They enjoyed to trigger libtards. There was no patience I could detect.

What you suggest does not work, because it demands one side to follow norms that other side does not have to follow.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#255

Post by sonofhans » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 7:08 PM UTC

awb wrote: post #105

> "How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice — ‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certa…

> But power corrupts absolutely ...

Even accounting for the misquote (no hate :) I disagree. History furnishes us with examples aplenty of people who were powerful yet uncorrupted. I believe Frank Herbert was closer to the truth when he wrote:

> “All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted.”

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#256

Post by throwaway201103 » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 7:09 PM UTC

edmundsauto wrote: post #177

at_a_remove wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recall a scant four years ago when many on the left were suggesting that the electors be faithless electors to get Clinton in office. After all, she won the popular vote, right? "What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate" indeed ?

Admittedly, I wasn’t following as closely in 16, but I really don’t remember much of this coming from authorities at all. Was it senators and Ms. Clinton herself? Because that is what is happening this year

Maybe you overlooked a multi-year investigation and failed impeachment over the notion that the president in collusion with Russia interfered with the '16 election?

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#257

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 7:09 PM UTC

sonofhans wrote: post #255

awb wrote: post #105

> "How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice — ‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certa…

> But power corrupts absolutely ... Even accounting for the misquote (no hate :) I disagree. History furnishes us with examples aplenty of people who were powerful yet uncorrupted. I believe Frank Herbert was closer to the truth when he wrote: > “All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people…

The problem is, more of us are corruptible than we think.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#258

Post by jessaustin » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 7:10 PM UTC

frenchyatwork wrote: post #157

awb wrote: post #105

> "How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice — ‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certa…

> I think it's safe to fear unchecked power and those who are loyal to people instead of loyal to ideas For all its many failings, I think this is one of the benefits that religion (an particularly the form of religion popular in Europe during the the last 2000 years) can provide. By having a notion of some god, and a cannon, you can have a list of ideas that everyone considers good, and it makes such demagoguery a l…

  s/cannon/canon/g

Most scoundrels throughout the history you invoke, clung tightly to their Christian identity. The millions of peasants subject to the predations of the Church over scores of generations didn't praise the Lord for their good fortunes. That Hitler wasn't particularly Christian himself, probably was because Christianity was already a tarnished brand in early 20c central Europe.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#259

Post by orangecat » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 7:11 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #20

bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things ar…

the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear

Hillary Clinton has been claiming that Trump's election was illegitimate for years: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trum.... 66% of Democrats believe that Russia directly hacked and manipulated vote counts in the 2016 election: https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/20...

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#260

Post by lostcolony » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 7:11 PM UTC

mrguyorama wrote: post #210

drilldrive wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last year has had a greater loss of norms of Western thought than we have seen since the dawn of the modern world in almost every Western country. Say what you want about the virus response, but powers that be don't give up newly founded power after they seized it once (the lockdowns never will truly end).

Jesus christ man, responding to a national health crisis in exactly the same way we did 100 years ago does not make us and authoritarian government. What's next, "the food rationing so our troops can keep fighting the actual nazis make us just as bad as them"?

"If I can afford it I should be able to buy more than 4 gallons of gas a week! We're a capitalist society, not socialist! Market forces will solve this! Down with rationing!"