They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) • Hacker News Board

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#231

Post by jolux » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

ajvs wrote: post #225

jolux wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's intimidating to be walking around with guns drawn. That's what I'm trying to get at.

It's also intimidating to try to counterprotest in the face of such a huge mob when there's been numerous instances of violence from them in the past. I certainly wouldn't go without a gun if I were to show up at one of these things lest someone see me as an easy victim.

You're just vastly overstating the prevalence of violence at these protests. Do you have evidence for these assertions or are you just throwing them blindly?

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#232

Post by pwillia7 » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #100

jolux wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate? Who isn't living in reality here? This is not a far left position, and it's not the left that is driving FUD about US election integrity.

I recall a scant four years ago when many on the left were suggesting that the electors be faithless electors to get Clinton in office. After all, she won the popular vote, right? "What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate" indeed ?

Right. But then none of that ever happened.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#233

Post by armenarmen » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:41 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #175

_iyig wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The armed occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge was also “mostly peaceful.” Much more peaceful than CHAZ/CHOP, in fact. I am friends with people who lived close by and visited the CHAZ/CHOP, and I watched live-streams from the CHAZ nearly 24/7 for the entire span of its existence. It was a lawless area patrolled by gun wielding far-left activists who routinely harassed journalists, ripped phones out of streamers’…

Where's your evidence that the security team were responsible for the shooting deaths of several people?

umm this? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53224445

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#234

Post by slg » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:43 PM UTC

the-dude wrote: post #158

mmastrac wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Consider the erosion of long-standing norms in the west over the last four years and how far society has slipped. These are the first, strong, signs that things are starting to go off the rails.

Which west? Which norms?

Just one recent example, this past presidential election was a resounding victory for Joe Biden. He has 306 electoral votes and is expected to win the popular vote by some 6 million people. Leaders around the world have all recognized this however the number of Republicans in federal office that have publicly acknowledged this can seemingly be counted on your fingers. A simple norm of acknowledging an electoral defeat is apparently out the window.

EDIT: The downvotes on this post are truly bizarre. Any downvoters want to explain the problem with this comment? I was answering a direct question with what most the of the world agrees are inarguable facts.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#235

Post by gfodor » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:44 PM UTC

aazaa wrote: post #148

amirkdv wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely curious: what are some historically significant examples of "false positives"? By which I assume you mean a time when people rose to resist something they didn't really have to.

History is written by the victors. From this perspective, every successful resistance was necessary and every failed resistance was not. Take the American Civil War, for example. If you (still) believe in the cause, it was a true positive. If you don't, then it was a false positive. Or, to be less inflammatory, consider the French Revolution. Was that a true positive or false positive, especially considering the afte…

I think this is probably true for armed conflict, but for civil conflicts in liberal societies, I think it's fair to assume that over time things converge to a more moral and just society over time. (So, the "victors" can be presumed legitimately moral.) However, this has an assumption that a society is liberal, and provides the free exchange of ideas, which is something that seems to ebb-and-flow itself.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#236

Post by yyyk » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:45 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #120

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Florida in 2000: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-jan-07-mn-9426-... Ohio in 2004: https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Boxer-delays-preside... . (It should be noted for the sake of fairness that the leaders of this attempt claimed they weren't trying to overturn the election results by blocking the count.)

Florida in 2000 bears no resemblance to this situation. Trump and his supporters are alleging widespread, systemic fraud for which there is no evidence whatsoever. Florida in 2000 was a historically close election for which there should have been a recount, but the election was handed to Bush by the Supreme Court instead.

Florida 2000 was indeed very different. That said, Gore was hoisted by his own petard and not by SCOTUS. It's important to remember that Gore did not wish to recount the entire state and all the ballots in the same way, but only in areas and ways considered favourable to Gore.

If Gore hadn't tried that stunt, the process wouldn't have dragged on until December, and the Court wouldn't have been able to interfere. Even more ironically, later attempts to check the count show that all of the recounting standards Gore had actually asked for would have led to Bush winning; Only a complete and fair recount may have allowed Gore to win.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#237

Post by gfodor » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:46 PM UTC

aazaa wrote: post #122

Imagine you're living through the events described in the essay. You know exactly where things are heading and that the situation is dire. You're willing to do whatever it takes to prevent the inevitable from playing out. What's your plan and your next move?

[flagged]

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#238

Post by mongol » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:46 PM UTC

amirkdv wrote: post #121

awb wrote: post #105

> "How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice — ‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certa…

Genuinely curious: what are some historically significant examples of "false positives"? By which I assume you mean a time when people rose to resist something they didn't really have to.

Sweden in the past 30-40 years.

Perhaps not historically significant, yet, but clear as night and day when you have lived here over the course of that time.

What has happened in Sweden during this time? It was until very recently almost impossible to have any public, critical opinion about migration without risking being labeled racist. Why? Not sure. But seems to me, a reaction due to fear that Sweden could evolve to something like Nazi Germany. Which of course was not going to happen.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#239

Post by ttesttom » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #153

jolux wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Many on the left" meaning every Democratic senator and congressperson, and the Democratic president himself too?

What, you think Obama and the Clintons would have minded terribly if it turned out that way? Anyway, we're not shifting the goalposts to the leaders, we're talking about the people , which is the subject of the article. The people of the left were completely down with the faithless electorate concept, whoopie! And somehow you missed this point. Which leads me to a question: why? Perhaps you didn't hear about it. Perh…

I don't think Obama would have supported it as he called Clinton urging her to concede early on election night.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/307536-obama-urged-cli...

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#240

Post by jolux » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

armenarmen wrote: post #233

jolux wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's your evidence that the security team were responsible for the shooting deaths of several people?

umm this? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53224445

No one disputes there was violence. What is disputed is who perpetrated it. As far as I know, there is no evidence it was committed by CHOP participants.