They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) • Hacker News Board

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#171

Post by hinkley » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:53 PM UTC

All the Left politicians are talking about how they're going to spend this cycle rolling back what the last cycle rolled back and that's not what I want. We can absolutely do that, after.

What I want is to know why we had a seated president who could get away with so much shit. A smarter autocrat would have taken us to a scarier place much faster. Mercifully, Hitler's dumbest lieutenant could talk circles around His Cheetoness. I'd like to know why the Executive branch had so much privilege and what we can do legislatively to make sure nobody else can do a few of those things ever again.

Unfortunately without flipping the Senate, the only way that's going to happen is if Biden pulls the same shit. The Senate Majority leader will get over the Ends Justify the Means, remember "checks and balances" and move with uncharacteristic speed to redraw the lines.

That's not a jab at the Right, that's a jab at Congress. When "our" asshole does something within their rights but ethically sketchy as hell, it's okay because we Had to Do It. When the other side copies us, well that is an affront to the Constitution and we must stop it.

Nobody ever learns a goddamned thing, whether they live in Germany, the US, or in a small remote tribe.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#172

Post by drilldrive » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:54 PM UTC

mmastrac wrote: post #150

panax wrote: post #142

The most chilling part is "But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on th…

Exactly. Consider the erosion of long-standing norms in the west over the last four years and how far society has slipped. These are the first, strong, signs that things are starting to go off the rails.

Last year has had a greater loss of norms of Western thought than we have seen since the dawn of the modern world in almost every Western country. Say what you want about the virus response, but powers that be don't give up newly founded power after they seized it once (the lockdowns never will truly end).

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#173

Post by dahfizz » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:54 PM UTC

OminousWeapons wrote: post #115

_iyig wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The armed occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge was also “mostly peaceful.” Much more peaceful than CHAZ/CHOP, in fact. I am friends with people who lived close by and visited the CHAZ/CHOP, and I watched live-streams from the CHAZ nearly 24/7 for the entire span of its existence. It was a lawless area patrolled by gun wielding far-left activists who routinely harassed journalists, ripped phones out of streamers’…

Precisely this. It was unacceptable when Bundy et al performed their actions, and what occurred in CHAZ / CHOP was equally unacceptable. The fact that people do not see these events as roughly analogous is amazing to me.

It's amazing what people overlook when the offenders belong to the same tribe as you.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#174

Post by jolux » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:54 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #153

jolux wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Many on the left" meaning every Democratic senator and congressperson, and the Democratic president himself too?

What, you think Obama and the Clintons would have minded terribly if it turned out that way? Anyway, we're not shifting the goalposts to the leaders, we're talking about the people , which is the subject of the article. The people of the left were completely down with the faithless electorate concept, whoopie! And somehow you missed this point. Which leads me to a question: why? Perhaps you didn't hear about it. Perh…

>The people of the left were completely down with the faithless electorate concept, whoopie!

Well, I certainly wasn't, and I contest that this belief was widespread within the left, but without evidence one way or another we're not going to resolve this aspect of the disagreement. What I do know is that no significant number of people with political positions and political power used that power to throw the election results into doubt, as Mitch McConnell and GOP congresspeople are now doing.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#175

Post by jolux » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

_iyig wrote: post #80

jolux wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm friends with several people that participated in CHAZ and your assessment of it is incorrect. It was doomed from the start but calling the people occupying it a violent mob is not correct. I personally believe it was a mistake because the people occupying it did not have or want a monopoly on the use of force in their area, meaning that it became a site of unrelated mob and gang violence because the police were n…

The armed occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge was also “mostly peaceful.” Much more peaceful than CHAZ/CHOP, in fact. I am friends with people who lived close by and visited the CHAZ/CHOP, and I watched live-streams from the CHAZ nearly 24/7 for the entire span of its existence. It was a lawless area patrolled by gun wielding far-left activists who routinely harassed journalists, ripped phones out of streamers’…

Where's your evidence that the security team were responsible for the shooting deaths of several people?

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#176

Post by OminousWeapons » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

TT3351 wrote: post #165

OminousWeapons wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree they are being sore losers, but you should think that they are exercising the legal rights they are entitled to in order to challenge what they perceive to be irregularities in the process. If irregularities are found (which they probably won't be) then cases should be heard by the courts. If they are not, Trump should ultimately concede or be forced from office. Be patient and let the process play out in a l…

There is no real right to file frivolous lawsuits (which the lawyers know in their hearts are frivolous, let's be abundantly clear), that is a complete myth.

I never said there was. The lawsuits that have been frivolous have been swiftly thrown out by the courts so frivolous lawsuits are largely a non-issue.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#177

Post by edmundsauto » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #100

jolux wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate? Who isn't living in reality here? This is not a far left position, and it's not the left that is driving FUD about US election integrity.

I recall a scant four years ago when many on the left were suggesting that the electors be faithless electors to get Clinton in office. After all, she won the popular vote, right? "What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate" indeed ?

Admittedly, I wasn’t following as closely in 16, but I really don’t remember much of this coming from authorities at all. Was it senators and Ms. Clinton herself? Because that is what is happening this year

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#178

Post by jolux » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

anonunivgrad wrote: post #125

jolux wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. Why would right-wingers show up to a left-wing protest with violent intentions? There's no legitimate reason, but I apologize for extrapolating from their actions.

Is it a surprise that armed people would show up to oppose the trashing of their cities?

Yes, it is, because taking up arms is not how we deal with social problems in civilized society, and civilians are not authorized to use force against other civilians except in extreme circumstances involving a direct threat against one's life.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#179

Post by throwaway23452 » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:59 PM UTC

The context of this being shared is obvious, but I want to point out that both sides of the American divide right now would likely instinctively identify the other (or their presidential candidate) as the Hitler in this scenario. I say this not to argue that one, or both, or neither, has no reason to make that connection. I say this to illustrate that it's easy to look at superficial signifiers - especially when saturated in fear - and enter the slippery slope of characterization and narrative-building that only deepens said fear, furthering the cycle.

Everyone wants to be able to read the tea-leaves. After World War 2 the world collectively asked itself, "what the hell just happened?" Psychological studies were performed to understand the mechanisms that could lead otherwise-decent people down such a horrifying path. Anecdotes were scrutinized for early warning signs that could have predicted what was to come. And I'm not saying that any of this was a waste.

But the reality is that no two societies, or trajectories, are exactly the same. There never has been and never will be another Hitler aside from Hitler himself. There have been and will be other tyrants, other psychopaths, other societal downfalls, but none of them will be exactly the same as that one was. And we should be very careful about looking at things through that lens, drawing conclusions based on rough impressions. The human mind is very good at squinting until things look right, especially when fear or preconceived notions are involved.

Be aware. Pay attention. There are real dangers to our society right now. But keep your head and don't succumb to blind pattern-matching. Stay focused on our society, and don't lump it in with a perceived archetype.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#180

Post by jolux » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:59 PM UTC

OminousWeapons wrote: post #176

TT3351 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no real right to file frivolous lawsuits (which the lawyers know in their hearts are frivolous, let's be abundantly clear), that is a complete myth.

I never said there was. The lawsuits that have been frivolous have been swiftly thrown out by the courts so frivolous lawsuits are largely a non-issue.

That's wrong. Frivolous lawsuits made with the intent to overturn a legitimate election result may be legal, but they're incredibly dangerous for the health of our democracy.