They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) • Hacker News Board

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#151

Post by jolux » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

ajvs wrote: post #113

jolux wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. Why would right-wingers show up to a left-wing protest with violent intentions? There's no legitimate reason, but I apologize for extrapolating from their actions.

Left-wing protests throughout the summer have frequently turned violent, with it being directed at random passersby, police, businesses, etc. I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to by "violent intentions" but that it has happened frequently in the past is a legitimate reason why right-wingers would show up prepared for the fact that violence will likely commence.

You're dodging the question though. Why are right-wingers showing up to a left-wing protest movement in the first place, if they aren't counterprotesting? Wandering around with rifles is not a protest.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#152

Post by vkou » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:38 PM UTC

_iyig wrote: post #119

vkou wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How quickly people who don't live in Seattle shout nonsense about the CHAZ. Let's break down what actually happened. 1. After weeks of protests, police intimidation, beatings, and frequent gassing of the entire street (much to the delight of people living there, who were unable to breathe inside their own apartments), including a right wing chap driving a car through a crowd, and shooting someone trying to pull him o…

There’s a lot to unpack in your post, but I’d just like to focus on “car attacks” here. You mention a “car attack” in Seattle. In actual fact, the incident I assume you mean was by all outward indicators a tragic accident, not a planned attack such as Charlottesville in 2017. Driver Dawit Kelete (who is black, and not politically affiliated) was high on pills when he plowed through BLM protestors occupying a section…

No, what I'm talking about is the one that took place on CH, during the East Precinct protests, not the freeway. You obviously don't live in Seattle.

The driver 'accidentally' turned, with speed, off an arterial, into the protest street, and despite having clear visibility of hundreds of people in his line of travel, kept driving, with people scattering out of his way.

He stopped when he hit a blockade, shot at one person who tried to open his car door, waved his gun around (With extra magazines jungle-taped together), and ran through the crowd directly into the police line. So much for being lost and confused, he seemed to know exactly where he was.

He was either planning a mass shooting, and lost his nerve at the last second, or was trying his damned hardest to provoke an attack on himself, presumably so he could respond with violence.

For an exercise - you try driving your car into a line of right wing militants protesting (or into a police line), and then shoot one of them. I doubt you will succeed in running to a line of safety, and I doubt their press will describe you as lost and confused.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#153

Post by at_a_remove » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:38 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #130

at_a_remove wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recall a scant four years ago when many on the left were suggesting that the electors be faithless electors to get Clinton in office. After all, she won the popular vote, right? "What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate" indeed ?

"Many on the left" meaning every Democratic senator and congressperson, and the Democratic president himself too?

What, you think Obama and the Clintons would have minded terribly if it turned out that way?

Anyway, we're not shifting the goalposts to the leaders, we're talking about the people, which is the subject of the article. The people of the left were completely down with the faithless electorate concept, whoopie!

And somehow you missed this point. Which leads me to a question: why? Perhaps you didn't hear about it. Perhaps you forgot it. Maybe you brushed it aside. Or maybe you recalled it and decided it wasn't worth mentioning. Each of these are mechanisms through which people are steered.

You accuse the far right of doing something that the far left was doing just four years ago, and still you have thought yourself objective, but it doesn't work.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#154

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:40 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #146

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you dispute that Ohio in 2004 bears a resemblance? Every Presidential election of course has its own unique context, so if you want to discuss broader patterns you have to be willing to step back from the nitty-gritty of each individual year.

I do, because Ohio was a single state with apparently some irregularities in the vote, and the effort to challenge was not even broadly supported within the Democratic party. What is being alleged here is that Democrats "stole" the election. Nonsense.

I think we're talking across each other here. I'm not attempting to draw a strict equivalence; I'm not saying this year is as bad as that year, this side is as bad as that side, this argument is as bad as that argument. I'm just saying that the original claim - that only one part of the political spectrum attempts to dispute clear election results - is flawed.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#155

Post by cafard » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:41 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #5

This however goes only for some non Jewish Germans - nazi party sympathizers. The social democrats and their sympatizant were attacked in 1933, right after Hitler got to power. That is when first camps were created. They housed political opponents. Plus, politically unreliable people and Jews they were excluded from civil service in 1933. The German Jews were also under no illusion that they were free. In April 1933,…

Joachim Fest's memoir Not I makes for interesting reading. His father, as a member of a republican organization--I think it translated as "Red-Gold-Black League"--lost his job as school principal immediately. The family was not particularly molested, but the old man was unemployable for the duration of the regime.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#156

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:42 PM UTC

mmastrac wrote: post #150

panax wrote: post #142

The most chilling part is "But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on th…

Exactly. Consider the erosion of long-standing norms in the west over the last four years and how far society has slipped. These are the first, strong, signs that things are starting to go off the rails.

[deleted]

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#157

Post by frenchyatwork » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:45 PM UTC

awb wrote: post #105

> "How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice — ‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certa…

> I think it's safe to fear unchecked power and those who are loyal to people instead of loyal to ideas

For all its many failings, I think this is one of the benefits that religion (an particularly the form of religion popular in Europe during the the last 2000 years) can provide. By having a notion of some god, and a cannon, you can have a list of ideas that everyone considers good, and it makes such demagoguery a little more difficult.

The US Constitution is a similar sort of cannon, but the ideas it proscribes are much more limited.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#158

Post by the-dude » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:45 PM UTC

mmastrac wrote: post #150

panax wrote: post #142

The most chilling part is "But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on th…

Exactly. Consider the erosion of long-standing norms in the west over the last four years and how far society has slipped. These are the first, strong, signs that things are starting to go off the rails.

Which west? Which norms?

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#159

Post by awb » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:47 PM UTC

amirkdv wrote: post #121

awb wrote: post #105

> "How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice — ‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certa…

Genuinely curious: what are some historically significant examples of "false positives"? By which I assume you mean a time when people rose to resist something they didn't really have to.

The anti Women's right to vote movement, anti Civil Rights movement, anti Gay marriage movement, etc. A vocal minority was stoking fears of the implications of recognizing the rights of the disenfranchised as the imminent breakdown of society, family and law and order. Turns out they were just bigoted.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#160

Post by Tostino » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:47 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #153

jolux wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Many on the left" meaning every Democratic senator and congressperson, and the Democratic president himself too?

What, you think Obama and the Clintons would have minded terribly if it turned out that way? Anyway, we're not shifting the goalposts to the leaders, we're talking about the people , which is the subject of the article. The people of the left were completely down with the faithless electorate concept, whoopie! And somehow you missed this point. Which leads me to a question: why? Perhaps you didn't hear about it. Perh…

You can find people of any background who will spout contradictory rhetoric. I don't think you're making this argument in good faith. 2016 was a whole lot closer than 2020, and Clinton conceded and there was no serious calculated attempt to overturn the election results by either the public at large, or people who had any power to do so.

Equating that with what's going on now does not seem like an argument made in good faith.