They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) • Hacker News Board

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#81

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #20

bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things ar…

Biden also said at least once that he might not accept the result of the election if he lost. (Sorry, don't have a reference handy, but I saw it.) I believe that his point was that he would also have to look at fraud. And he said it much less often than Trump did. Still it was rather scary to have both sides saying it.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#82

Post by jolux » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:08 PM UTC

throwthrowawyy wrote: post #73

jolux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder…

Man accused of hatching plot to kidnap Whitmer is BLM supporter and made comments critical of police >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/man-accused-of-hatching-pl... In the age of agent provocateurs[0], it is hard to really know the truth even if you are present at the scene. There is only so much time in a day. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/21/viral-imag...

>There’s no evidence that the suspects arrested in connection with a plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer are antifa activists.

>Before his arrest, one of the suspects attended a Black Lives Matter protest. Another suspect criticized the movement.

>State and federal documents make no mention of antifa or Black Lives Matter. Rather, they reference an anti-government militia group.

>Michigan’s attorney general has said white supremacist and anti-government groups acted “in concert based on a shared extreme ideology.”

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#83

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:08 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #28

jvanderbot wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not necessarily the actions, but the perceived intent by "the other side" that is important. Events become provocation draws provocation draws backlash, etc etc. I'm a fairly liberal person, but it doesn't take an inhuman amount of mental gymnastics to look at riots, anti-police sentiment, etc, and see a coordinated hostile agenda. I am lucky that I get to talk to both hardcore right and hardcore left people reg…

What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate? Who isn't living in reality here? This is not a far left position, and it's not the left that is driving FUD about US election integrity.

You're supposed to recognize that many of your positions look equally bizarre and scary to the other side, and conclude that to a significant degree this is a gap in understanding rather than a gap in morals.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#84

Post by vkou » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

_iyig wrote: post #38

jolux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder…

How quickly we forget the heavily-armed antifa militia that occupied 3 city blocks in downtown Seattle, whose assault rifle-wielding “security team” assaulted journalists, intimidated residents, and murdered an unarmed black teenager. Residents and businesses owners are currently suing the city for abandoning the neighborhood’s police station, providing porta-potties to the armed occupiers, and ceding control of this…

How quickly people who don't live in Seattle shout nonsense about the CHAZ.

Let's break down what actually happened.

1. After weeks of protests, police intimidation, beatings, and frequent gassing of the entire street (much to the delight of people living there, who were unable to breathe inside their own apartments), including a right wing chap driving a car through a crowd, and shooting someone trying to pull him out of his vehicle, the police leave the east precinct, based on an FBI claim that it will be burnt down.

2. The protest moves into the blocks around it, and starts protecting the precinct.

3. The precinct does not burn down.

4. The protest moves elsewhere, and a block party starts.

5. An idiot called Raz, and his boys start providing 'security'. Nobody asked them for it. People who ran the protest didn't ask for it. People living in the area didn't ask for it. Smells like a gang moving into a power vaccumm to me.

6. Homeless folks move into the park area of CHAZ. The area gets a bit rough at night, but is still a block party during the day.

7. Someone in the homeless encampment gets killed in the early hours of the morning, presumably over drugs, but who knows.

8. A teenager steals a car and takes it on a joyride through the pedestrian areas of the CHAZ. (Remember all the car attacks against protest areas over the past few weeks in both Seattle, and the rest of the country? Not a smart move.)

9. Some unknown person kills him and injures his friend.

10. The police move back in to an unburnt district. They then set up a multi-block checkpoint, that demanded all entrants into the former CHAZ to show their ID to be allowed entrance. (When we were under the thrall of Warlord Raz, only drivers had to show ID at his checkpoint.)

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#85

Post by OminousWeapons » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #11

tines wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give an example?

We are in a state of emergency where the government has taken pretty direct control of people's lives, and businesses only remain in existence due to massive government intervention. It is for a good cause. However a couple of years from now, there will remain a temptation to use the same tools to address whatever normal problems we have. And that is a big step towards a planned economy like the Soviet Union had. It…

> It is for a good cause. However a couple of years from now, there will remain a temptation to use the same tools to address whatever normal problems we have. And that is a big step towards a planned economy like the Soviet Union had.

It is difficult for me to imagine another set of scenarios that could plausibly lead to popular support of a lockdown. Even our past lockdowns from this year were poorly enforced and basically voluntary (the worst punishment was largely being fined). Yeah businesses shuttered but at GREAT political expense to politicians which is why we have half assed our lockdowns repeatedly. Politicians couldn't bear any more pain. The last thing they want to do is lock down again.

> I cannot forget that 9/11 has transformed us into a permanent surveillance state where our communications are tracked, travel by plane involves a search where someone gets to look at your privates

Yeah 9/11 definitely enhanced the surveillance state which is deeply unfortunate, but we had security screening for planes long before we had 9/11, and it wasn't just 9/11 that made the experience miserable, it was the 10 follow on attacks targeting different vulns in the screening process (liquids, shoes, blah blah). The security measures need to be decently strong because we vehemently refuse to employ the more effective authoritarian technique of flagging passengers based on history and demographics like they do in places like Israel (eg, simply flag anyone with a higher probability of being a muslim because most attacks were performed by muslims). We are actually resisting the aggressive response in this case.

> it is considered normal in low crime neighborhoods to require security badges and/or passing armed guards to get into office building

This has nothing to do with terrorism or 9/11.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#86

Post by snarfy » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

ajvs wrote: post #58

lisper wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things ar…

After the last election there was the attempted impeachment and RussiaGate witch hunt which found no evidence that Trump conspired with Russia to influence the election. It's pretty brazen to ignore that ans say the left never disputed the election outcome.

There is no question there was Russian interference in the 2016 election with reams of evidence to back it up. It was then spun that Trump specifically did not conspire.

Conspiring does not matter. It is entirely irrelevant to the goal of validating the integrity of the election. If they care so much about fraud they would have continued to investigate all of the irregularities around the 2016 election.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#87

Post by solarhoma » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #55

stickyricky wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does not contradict my point.

You're saying he shot someone. That was alleged, and he was never arrested or charged. Like I said, some leftists are believers in armed self defense. I am not. But the fact of the matter is we will never know the full details of that case. I condemn bringing weapons to protests as fully as I condemn equating the role of violence on the left and the right in America right now.

Vice interviewed the person who killed the Trump supporter in cold blood. Yes, there was no official case against the person. But the police knew who the murderer was. This is why a shootout occurred and no other individual is being charged or sought after AFAIK.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#88

Post by _iyig » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #78

_iyig wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How quickly we forget the heavily-armed antifa militia that occupied 3 city blocks in downtown Seattle, whose assault rifle-wielding “security team” assaulted journalists, intimidated residents, and murdered an unarmed black teenager. Residents and businesses owners are currently suing the city for abandoning the neighborhood’s police station, providing porta-potties to the armed occupiers, and ceding control of this…

The guy who murdered the teenager had nothing to do with the CHAZ security team. He snuck in specifically to murder the other kid. I have a feeling you know this.

You are probably referring to a separate shooting death in CHOP, that of Lorenzo Anderson. I am referring to the murder of Antonio Mays Jr. by antifa security. This murder was filmed from multiple angles and recordings are widely available.

Short clips from several of the vantage points (skip to roughly 1:40 - warning, disturbing):

https://youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=_K0tXOBPMHA

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#89

Post by jolux » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #84

_iyig wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How quickly we forget the heavily-armed antifa militia that occupied 3 city blocks in downtown Seattle, whose assault rifle-wielding “security team” assaulted journalists, intimidated residents, and murdered an unarmed black teenager. Residents and businesses owners are currently suing the city for abandoning the neighborhood’s police station, providing porta-potties to the armed occupiers, and ceding control of this…

How quickly people who don't live in Seattle shout nonsense about the CHAZ. Let's break down what actually happened. 1. After weeks of protests, police intimidation, beatings, and frequent gassing of the entire street (much to the delight of people living there, who were unable to breathe inside their own apartments), including a right wing chap driving a car through a crowd, and shooting someone trying to pull him o…

That's right. My girlfriend in fact lived on Capital Hill at the time right outside, so I have a pretty good idea of the details.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#90

Post by SideburnsOfDoom » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #40

lisper wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things ar…

> does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections You may not be old enough to remember, but Al Gore (democrat) did _exactly_ this 20 years ago.

Al Gore gave a decent concession speech. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq5YdkYSyEE

I didn't recall the date though, I checked and it was on December 13th, 2000.

Come back on 14 December 2020 and tell me if that aspect is "exactly this".

because the narrow vote count margin aspect that time really isn't, and the claims of fraud and rigging this time really isn't. And neither bode well for a hypothetical Trump concession speech.