Off topic: is there a reason why lesswrong.com needs an Intercom button? Shortly after opening the page, the button expanded and asking me "need help?". I understand how that might be desired for a SaaS landing page, but a blogging platform? What "help" can you possibly need while reading an article?
(LessWrong.com team lead here) It's actually really useful for getting bug reports for the site, and we have a number of authors who we help a lot with doing various custom HTML and javascript integrations for their posts, and having a live-chat option for that is quite useful. I think the "Need help?" text is just the default text Intercom comes with. I should maybe look into seeing whether we can replace that, thou…
Nuclear war is unlikely to cause human extinction?
101–110 of 273 posts
Re: Nuclear war is unlikely to cause human extinction?
#102>multiple that by 14,000 warheads, and we get 112 million km². That's a lot! It's still less than the 510.1 million km² of earth's land mass, but it's a lot more than the ~10.2 million km² of urban space. Presumably this is enough to cover every human habitation, so in principle, it might be possible to kill everyone with radiation from existing nuclear weapons. While there is ~500m km2 of land on the planet, only ab…
A nuclear war would stop when one side can't fight anymore and surrenders. It may happen after deadly exchanges that would cost millions of lives but there is no reason to believe it would last until everyone is wiped out.
Re: Nuclear war is unlikely to cause human extinction?
#103What a lot of people seem to gloss over is that the southern hemisphere is, for the most part, blissfully uninvolved in nuclear politics and unlikely to be targeted. Global wind patterns would dump most of the fallout in the northern hemisphere. Google and Facebook would be gone because there are too many primary data centers in the northern hemisphere but Wikipedia might not even go down. Humanity on the historical…
> Google and Facebook would be gone Oh horror
Re: Nuclear war is unlikely to cause human extinction?
#104What is the point of writing a post like this? I feel like there is an impetus in the 'rational' tech press to want to downplay threats like nuclear war, and emphasize dubious threats like AGI. I really don't care if nuclear war doesn't kill every single human instantly . So what? Full scale nuclear war means instant civilization collapse.... full stop . Should we forget about disarmament?....guess not every single p…
I wrote this post, and the point is to improve discussion of societal risks. As others have pointed out, nuclear war doesn't have to kill everyone to be extremely bad and worth avoiding. I spend a lot of my time thinking about risks from nuclear and biological weapons, and downplaying these risks is not my purpose. One problem with assuming nuclear war kills everyone is that this discourages anyone from preparing for…
Re: Nuclear war is unlikely to cause human extinction?
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
(LessWrong.com team lead here) It's actually really useful for getting bug reports for the site, and we have a number of authors who we help a lot with doing various custom HTML and javascript integrations for their posts, and having a live-chat option for that is quite useful. I think the "Need help?" text is just the default text Intercom comes with. I should maybe look into seeing whether we can replace that, thou…
Thanks for explaining!
Re: Nuclear war is unlikely to cause human extinction?
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
> try to mitigate the consequences in the even a war does occur! in the case where mitigation is deemed acceptable, it would paradoxically make war more likely! That's why a defensive missile shield technology is not a good investment if you want more peace. The existing MAD mantra is what stops nuclear war. It should continue until humanity unifies into a single world gov't.
> That's why a defensive missile shield technology is not a good investment if you want more peace. That depends on whether you go for a 'weak' shield or a 'strong' shield. A weak shield may defend a dozen or two warheads: something that North Korea would launch. Japan has a 'weak' shield AFAICT: * https://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1374.html A strong one would protect against hundreds: another major power…
On a tangent that doesn't really change ether we find weak shields bothersome or not: arguably all strong shield projects were just weak shields with reality denial built right into the sales pitch.
Re: Nuclear war is unlikely to cause human extinction?
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm sure I've heard the idea that nuclear arsenals can kill us all a hundred times over, or similar. Obviously my half-remembering isn't evidence, but if other people had heard this sort of thing, it would be evidence of a popular idea, however wrong. Even allowing for the larger arsenals at the height of the cold war.
Today arsenals are so much smaller than during the Cold War. Both the US and the USSR had almost 70K warheads; today they have 1600 each. Reading about SIOP plans makes you realize how hard the US planned to hit the USSR; I have no doubts the Soviets had similar plans. Today, 3200 warheads can ruin your day; but 140K warheads (discounting the relatively small number of Chinese/French/UK warheads) would ruin all but t…
Re: Nuclear war is unlikely to cause human extinction?
#108>multiple that by 14,000 warheads, and we get 112 million km². That's a lot! It's still less than the 510.1 million km² of earth's land mass, but it's a lot more than the ~10.2 million km² of urban space. Presumably this is enough to cover every human habitation, so in principle, it might be possible to kill everyone with radiation from existing nuclear weapons. While there is ~500m km2 of land on the planet, only ab…
You also have to consider how connected that area is. I.E. How many nukes do you need to kill each valley in Switzerland, each oasis in the desert, etc,
Re: Nuclear war is unlikely to cause human extinction?
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
If we're comparing instantaneous risks, then I agree with your arguments. The most likely thing that could kill the most people today (in the next 24 hours) is a large nuclear war, followed by things like a nearby supernova, gamma ray burst, etc. An asteroid large enough to wipe out half of humanity before Saturday is really unlikely to be close enough to not have been observed already. In the first atomic bomb test…
Here's the fundamental problem as I see it: probabilities are meaningless . We can talk about conditionals...potentials...likelihoods....whatever until we are blue in the face. All they do is provide a thin veneer over what I see is the truth: we simply have no real idea regarding most existential risks. Probability is a false god that justifies our wasting resources on problems we can't hope to solve, as we don't ev…
I'd say aliens are in the supernova and gamma ray burst territory; even if we understood a lot about them we would be mostly powerless to counter them as an existential threat because there are very few actions we could take to deflect, defeat, or escape alien attack. Reasoning with them is probably the best we could do.
> I would say our largest current existential threat is our systems of government
Just to be clear; do you mean completely wiping out humanity or a reset to some small population that might have another chance at it?
> We need research into questioning the fundamental assumptions by which we govern (secrecy, militancy, the paradigm of competition). How do we set goals as a world, not as nations? How do we engineer trusted environments, not zero trust environments? This is were my money would be.
This is a lot closer than you may realize to what a lot of AGI existential risk folks research. AGIs will almost certainly be agents in the world; able to act and smart enough to understand their ability to act and affect the world and themselves. The correspondence to governance is pretty close; humans are pretty smart actors who understand a lot of the dynamics they have control over and have goals they want to achieve. AGI will have to fit into an ecosystem of humans and their governments in a beneficial way, and a big part of solving AGI risk is understanding governance, decision theory, goals, and values well enough to not create AGI that turns into a despotic warmonger to achieve its unaligned goals. We know that human agents can end up as despots.
Take the question of how to set goals as the world, not as nations. That extends down to the individual level as well; the coordination problem, unaligned incentives, the tragedy of the commons, decision theory, and other game theory problems can be extended from individuals vs. individuals to nations vs. nations. If anything, AGI will be easier to solve than human governance both because there will be fewer ethical restrictions and because we can (hopefully) engineer AGI in ways that align with human valued and incentives instead of trying to reason with humans.
A trusted environment is, if I take your meaning correctly, one in which nations have aligned their incentives so closely so as to be able to trust that the actions of other nations are honest and in good faith because any other options would be counterproductive. That's at least the sense I get from trust between individuals; after enough time with someone one can be fairly certain that they have enough shared values and goals to be able to come to similar decisions as one would, and trust them to act in accordance either through mutual shared interest (including friendship, admiration, respect, etc.) or the benefit of continued cooperation in the future. I suppose my first thought is that having "nations" to begin with breaks a lot of shared incentives because it overlays unevenly distributed wealth and opportunity with arbitrary legal and social groupings that nevertheless a lot of people care very deeply about. Getting nations to truly cooperate probably means giving up a lot of identity based on tradition, origin, and history. I have no clue how best to convince people that what really matters about them and their neighbors is how individually happy, fulfilled, and free to explore they are regardless of their differences. Getting rid of false beliefs in zero sum economics and the futility of status signalling might be a start, but humans are sort of innately programmed for a lot of counterproductive beliefs about status, pride, fairness, worth, etc.
Not getting too far afield, I am also curious how you reason under uncertainty without probabilities. E.g. you don't know how things may turn out but have some ideas; how do you choose what to do? How will you know if you made a good or bad choice? Is it quantifiable?
Re: Nuclear war is unlikely to cause human extinction?
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wrote this post, and the point is to improve discussion of societal risks. As others have pointed out, nuclear war doesn't have to kill everyone to be extremely bad and worth avoiding. I spend a lot of my time thinking about risks from nuclear and biological weapons, and downplaying these risks is not my purpose. One problem with assuming nuclear war kills everyone is that this discourages anyone from preparing for…
>One problem with assuming nuclear war kills everyone is that this discourages anyone from preparing for potential nuclear wars. This is what the thinking was during the early part of the cold war, the whole duck and cover era. The decades after that and the knowledge gained during the cold war is what lead to our current fears and justification for focusing on disarmament rather than nuclear war prep. Whether or not…
However, the question whether or not humans end up totally extinct is relevant when comparing nuclear war with other very horrible risks, some of which do threaten total extinction. To discuss, prioritize and act on very serious (though, hopefully, unlikely to materialize) risks, we need a scale of "horribleness" that doesn't just give every serious problem a 10 out of 10. We need to reasonably prioritize our actions among many potentially dystopian risks - if consider a single one of them an negative infinity, a literal "AVOID AT ALL COSTS", then those "all costs" include increased vulnerability to other risks, and that's not appropriate.