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Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

arstechnica.com

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Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#81

Post by Barrin92 »

m00x wrote: post #54
zigzag312 wrote: post #41

I hope Epic succeeds. Apple has managed to create a virtual ecosystem and they have absolute control over it. Yes, they did it by creating a great product at the right time (at the rise of much improved telecommunications technology). With a combination of HW, OS and digital store they created more than just a product, they have created a platform. Based on that platform, with a big contribution from third party deve…

I think people don't understand the perspective here because it's being normalized by all the big players. To make it simpler to understand, apply this system to your computer. What if you couldn't install what you wanted and everything would have to go through a protected store? If the platform dislikes your app, they could just remove it from the store and no one could get it. It adds a huge gate in front of the ha…

Related point maybe worth bringing up, imagine if Windows had complete control over the distribution of videogames when the industry was in its infancy? Would we ever have gotten some of the more controversial games at the time that have become genre defining like Doom or Wolfenstein? And would we be better off if all game studios would have to pay 30% to Microsoft?

It's ridiculous. We grew up with the (relative, before someone starts a gnu/linux rant) freedom to install on our PCs what we wanted, why do kids today not deserve the same thing?

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#82

Post by harrisonjackson »

If I understand correctly the "theft" was for the funds epic received from customers after adding their own payment system to the Fortnite app against Apple's TOS. But didn't Epic discount the subscription and pass most of those savings back to the customer?

So maybe Apple should really be going after the savings all of those customers have.... /s

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#83

Post by cygx »

cgriswald wrote: post #78
cdash wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaming platforms are single use platforms. Mobile phones much like a PC are general purpose devices that peoples entire lives revolve around.

That's not a particularly compelling argument to me. I'd rather see direct comparisons made. Do gaming platforms require a 30% cut of all sales on the platform, including subscriptions? Do they forbid applications from discussing other subscription options? Etc. I'd say the GP isn't really playing devil's advocate, because he hasn't shown the comparison is apt nor that if it is apt, the gaming platforms aren't also a…

The 30% 'platform tax' originated with Nintendo. It included the cost of cartridge manufacturing, but nowadays, 'everyone' (Apple, Google, Nintendo, Sony, Valve, Microsoft) takes it. [1]

I have no idea how their pricing models differ regarding in app purchases, subscription, etc, and feel disinclined to investigate for a one-off comment...

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-19/epic-game...

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#84

Post by csharptwdec19 »

cgriswald wrote: post #78
cdash wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaming platforms are single use platforms. Mobile phones much like a PC are general purpose devices that peoples entire lives revolve around.

That's not a particularly compelling argument to me. I'd rather see direct comparisons made. Do gaming platforms require a 30% cut of all sales on the platform, including subscriptions? Do they forbid applications from discussing other subscription options? Etc. I'd say the GP isn't really playing devil's advocate, because he hasn't shown the comparison is apt nor that if it is apt, the gaming platforms aren't also a…

Well in some cases there are tax implications. No clue whether it's the case here, but by example in the EU, a 'Computer' has different import duties/etc compared to a 'Game Console' (there was some speculation that the PS3's 'Other OS' mode was an attempt to get that better classification.)

So my question would be whether there are tax implications.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#85

Post by cgriswald »

Retric wrote: post #79
rbecker wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Walled gardens are safer, and usually have some implicit or explicit quality guarantee (like the Nintendo seal of quality). And consumers who want to limit themselves to the safety of Apple's app store are free to do so. But Apple goes a step beyond this, and prevents consumers who don't want to be locked-in this way, from using "unauthorized" stores or apps. It's false to claim that the only way to offer safety is…

Freedom and computer security are in fundamental opposition. It’s the same basic question as GC vs manual memory management. The only way to offer safety on a platform is to secure that platform. If Apple disables the API’s which lets apps access users contacts then they can be sure 3rd party iOS stores don’t compromise user’s privacy. If they allow API access and don’t vet stores then guess what that directly means…

> PS: If you disagree try and come up with some supporting argument.

I downvoted you rather than giving you an argument. Here's why:

You've edited your post at least four times. Three of those times was when I was trying to offer a counter-argument. The problem was, you kept changing yours. I'm honestly not sure what you believe, both because you changed it so many times, but also because you haven't defined your terms (e.g. whose freedom?). Finally, you make some bold claims, but you don't really support those claims with anything I find credible.

In any case, the 'security' argument (and the associated 'reputation' argument you made in one your iterations) rings particularly hollow with me since Apple itself has already had—for decades—great success with a platform that is reasonably secure and relatively free compared to iOS: the Mac.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#86

Post by mlindner »

cdash wrote: post #68
cygx wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devil's advocate: PC aside, isn't this business as usual for gaming platforms?

Gaming platforms are single use platforms. Mobile phones much like a PC are general purpose devices that peoples entire lives revolve around.

Software is software. What it does isn't the point here. If Apple's use of the Apple store is illegal, so are all the game consoles and they'll be forced to allow people to run any apps they want on them and have competitor app stores.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#87

Post by rbecker »

Retric wrote: post #79
rbecker wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Walled gardens are safer, and usually have some implicit or explicit quality guarantee (like the Nintendo seal of quality). And consumers who want to limit themselves to the safety of Apple's app store are free to do so. But Apple goes a step beyond this, and prevents consumers who don't want to be locked-in this way, from using "unauthorized" stores or apps. It's false to claim that the only way to offer safety is…

Freedom and computer security are in fundamental opposition. It’s the same basic question as GC vs manual memory management. The only way to offer safety on a platform is to secure that platform. If Apple disables the API’s which lets apps access users contacts then they can be sure 3rd party iOS stores don’t compromise user’s privacy. If they allow API access and don’t vet stores then guess what that directly means…

> Freedom and computer security are in fundamental opposition.

Only if you interpret "freedom" as "freedom for apps" instead of "freedom for the user". None of what you said precludes the user (I won't say "owner") being able to override Apple, or take Apple's place in deciding what their device may do.

In your mind, is a platform only "secure" when ultimate control is with the manufacturer, and not the user?

How much more "secure" were Apple's users in Hong Kong, after Apple decided to disable the app they were using to track the police?

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#88

Post by thehappypm »

horsawlarway wrote: post #75
thehappypm wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might not seem fair as a developer, but as an iPhone user, I don't have any problem with all my apps coming from one trusted store. Just compare it to Windows. Apps can still be downloaded in several inconsistent ways, and it's hard to trust applications you download arbitrarily.

So continue to use the Apple store and you have no problems. App not on the Apple store? Don't use the app. So simple. --- I bet your first response to that statement isn't positive - Now reflect that this is exactly what Apple is saying to developers. "Don't want to use our store? Don't release on iOS." Because right now, if you use an application on iOS, you are not a customer of that application. You are an Apple…

My gut reaction to "app not on Apple store" is -- that's life, isn't it? Not every program is available on every store. I can't get Halo on my PlayStation. I can't get certain video editing tools on my PC. I can't get certain productivity software on my Mac.

Disjointed app stores are annoying at worst, but I don't really see why there's any legal problem with that.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#89

Post by shepik »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #48
thehappypm wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to call Apple a country.. there's alternatives out there and nobody is forcing you to use an iPhone, which is vastly different from a country, where you are forced to abide by its laws and pay its taxes. It's almost an absurd analogy. If I was to make an analogy, I might say Walmart is a better analogy. Walmart is the biggest store in town, but you do have alternatives and nobody is fo…

> there's alternatives out there and nobody is forcing you to use an iPhone In what way is this different than a country or a state? Nobody is forcing you to live in California, you could sell your house and get a different job and a different social cohort and move to Florida. Nobody is forcing you to use an iPhone, you could sell your phone and replace all your apps and convince everyone you know to switch away fro…

> you could sell your house

But you can't sell apps when you switch platforms, so not really sure how this country/state analogy helps

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#90

Post by ethbr0 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #81
m00x wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people don't understand the perspective here because it's being normalized by all the big players. To make it simpler to understand, apply this system to your computer. What if you couldn't install what you wanted and everything would have to go through a protected store? If the platform dislikes your app, they could just remove it from the store and no one could get it. It adds a huge gate in front of the ha…

Related point maybe worth bringing up, imagine if Windows had complete control over the distribution of videogames when the industry was in its infancy? Would we ever have gotten some of the more controversial games at the time that have become genre defining like Doom or Wolfenstein? And would we be better off if all game studios would have to pay 30% to Microsoft? It's ridiculous. We grew up with the (relative, bef…

One huge subterranean component of this that we don't talk about -- we have overengineered platforms.

In the pre-90s, you bashed things out of the same primatives everyone else had access to.

Now, even getting a simple app up and running on Android or iOS requires abstraction-on-abstraction-on-boilerplate. And you still don't know what the lower layers are doing. And making it runnable requires a developer account, etc.

Are we surprised these days that kids (and everyone else) don't see "writing an app" as something they can just try?

And that the end consequence of that is that they don't value the ability to do so?

We've engineered our platforms to look like the companies that produced them: highly optimized, but simultaneously bloated and overly complex.

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