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Google's Backdoor Access System into Gmail Accounts

schneier.com

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Re: Google's Backdoor Access System into Gmail Accounts

#51

Post by ChuckMcM »

pnathan wrote: post #47

So let's go with a rational assumption, which is that your email provider has the capability to read your email (scenarios: warrant, hacker, bored sysadmin). You, being a good geek, encrypt your personal systems out the wazzoo. Then you want to take the next step: encrypted communications (examples: legal, business). This now makes your request of everyone you deal with to dink with public/private keys and - likely -…

What's the best real-world (i.e., non-propellerhead) solution to this?

There isn't one. I've looked at creating one, and while its a sizable engineering job all the pieces are available. What it isn't is monetizable. Not like 'make me a gazillion dollars' monetizable, but like 'pay me a living wage to work on it' monetizable.

The key (and its a horrible pun) is the key. You can build zero knowledge proof [1] key exchangers now (patent expired :-) and a relatively inexpensive 'key' based on either USB or bluetooh communications (see Yubikey [2] as an example). Such that email to a new third party could be done in an encrypted way such that the message could only be read when that exact party was reading the email in a reader that could get the keys to unlock it from the physical key.

Like most such systems it only 'makes sense' if everyone (or at least a large fraction of everyone) has one.

To get initial adoption it needs support in 'free' tools which means it needs to be open in the sense that folks can trust what it does, and implement a compatible protocol without paying you anything.

To earn a spot in your pocket/purse/pack it needs to be flexible enough to accomodate other uses. To get those other uses the folks who provide them need to be able to support it for 'free' since their customers won't be paying them to put it in.

So a large investment in propellor heads to make it usable by the rest of the world and achieve critical mass for adoption. Oh, and if you do start getting traction the governments of the world are going to want to disappear you (which was one of Bruce's points)

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-knowledge_proof

[2] http://www.yubico.com/yubikey

Re: Google's Backdoor Access System into Gmail Accounts

#52

Post by StavrosK »

pnathan wrote: post #47

So let's go with a rational assumption, which is that your email provider has the capability to read your email (scenarios: warrant, hacker, bored sysadmin). You, being a good geek, encrypt your personal systems out the wazzoo. Then you want to take the next step: encrypted communications (examples: legal, business). This now makes your request of everyone you deal with to dink with public/private keys and - likely -…

Well, there's a scale of "likelihood to be intercepted" on the left and "practicality" on the right. I'd imagine that whispering something in someone's ear with the shower running in the background would be in the far left end, and email would be the far right.

As you move to the right, I imagine that OTR for IM is a very good compromise, followed by PGP, to a lesser degree. Those two should be good enough for most communication, and then there are some encrypted VoIP solutions that I don't know about.

Re: Google's Backdoor Access System into Gmail Accounts

#53

Post by mike-cardwell »

earl wrote: post #49
mike-cardwell wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like what lavabit has done, but at the end of the day, if they are forced to, they can modify their server side software to log your password when you log in, and then use that password to decrypt all of your email on the server side. It also doesn't secure the email on the client side. If your IMAP client stores the email on disk, then you need to make sure it is encrypting it in a secure fashion first. Lavabit sh…

I don't think even what you said is sufficient -- as long as they are within the jurisdiction of the US court system, I think a judge can order them to start saving copies of incoming mail before encrypting, etc. I think fundamentally you can't circumvent the law with technical measures. You need to change the law to require warrants.

Sure. The method I stated would protect historical email, but it wouldn't prevent the capture of new email after an order has been made to start saving it.

Re: Google's Backdoor Access System into Gmail Accounts

#54

Post by jedbrown »

beagle3 wrote: post #36

Some people on this discussion mention that they simply run their own mail servers -- that's dandy for incoming mail. But how do you guys make sure your outgoing mail is not blacklisted/ignored/considered spam? That's been a non trivial problem for me in the past when I was running a mail server (and spam was not such a big problem back then). Also, is there any mail server you can run/recommend that has gmail-speedy…

If you are willing to pull your mail down into a local maildir one way or another, you can index and search it with notmuch (http://notmuchmail.org/).

Re: Google's Backdoor Access System into Gmail Accounts

#55

Post by jrwoodruff »

hammock wrote: post #46
VladRussian wrote: post #43

all this evil isn't done by some special evil people. It is you or people like you who does it. people like you write the laws mandating backdoors, people like you force companies to implement it, people like you actually implement it. After all that, you dare to express displeasure with the thing you done pretty much by yourself to yourself. Man up and take responsibility for your actions. Next time you're groped by…

Damn I wish more people would realize this. Our brains "need" a clear antagonist, someone to pin the blame on. But that's not how it works, rather it's an agglomeration of many small attitudes that result in an emergent phenomenon known as culture- every time you say "hmm we need this or that!" - or more likely, every time you don't question authority and instead just roll over and accept it- you are feeding into the…

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

It's a great quote because it's so true, and it's happened so many times throughout history.

Re: Google's Backdoor Access System into Gmail Accounts

#56

Post by JonnieCache »

pnathan wrote: post #47

So let's go with a rational assumption, which is that your email provider has the capability to read your email (scenarios: warrant, hacker, bored sysadmin). You, being a good geek, encrypt your personal systems out the wazzoo. Then you want to take the next step: encrypted communications (examples: legal, business). This now makes your request of everyone you deal with to dink with public/private keys and - likely -…

If you have stuff that you need to keep secret from your government, only discuss it face to face.

If you have so much secret stuff to talk about that its not practical to do it all face to face, then there's probably enough at stake that setting up some simple key exchanges and keeping a tight protocol will be the least of your worries.

Re: Google's Backdoor Access System into Gmail Accounts

#57

Post by jeromeflipo »

pragmatic wrote: post #5

Could anyone recommend a hosted email service that does not allow spying on users? Alternatively I wonder what Bruce Schneier recommends? Do you have to host your own email server?

We could ask Google. They've tested a PGP feature in Gmail back in Feb. 2009, so I'm sure they would (try to) release it publicly if we ask for it loud enough.

http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/02/gmail-tests-pgp-sig...

Re: Google's Backdoor Access System into Gmail Accounts

#58

Post by reedlaw »

VladRussian wrote: post #43

all this evil isn't done by some special evil people. It is you or people like you who does it. people like you write the laws mandating backdoors, people like you force companies to implement it, people like you actually implement it. After all that, you dare to express displeasure with the thing you done pretty much by yourself to yourself. Man up and take responsibility for your actions. Next time you're groped by…

That's simply not true. Even in Nazi Germany there were pockets of resistance and people like Sophie Scholl who gave their lives because of their ideals. I for one am doing my best to resist tyranny in all its forms. I certainly won't write a backdoor or vote for anyone in favor of Patriot Act-style tyranny.

Re: Google's Backdoor Access System into Gmail Accounts

#59

Post by scythe »

beagle3 wrote: post #36

Some people on this discussion mention that they simply run their own mail servers -- that's dandy for incoming mail. But how do you guys make sure your outgoing mail is not blacklisted/ignored/considered spam? That's been a non trivial problem for me in the past when I was running a mail server (and spam was not such a big problem back then). Also, is there any mail server you can run/recommend that has gmail-speedy…

Could we theoretically form some sort of trust network of HN users' personal mailservers? Would that help at all?

Re: Google's Backdoor Access System into Gmail Accounts

#60

Post by VladRussian »

reedlaw wrote: post #58
VladRussian wrote: post #43

all this evil isn't done by some special evil people. It is you or people like you who does it. people like you write the laws mandating backdoors, people like you force companies to implement it, people like you actually implement it. After all that, you dare to express displeasure with the thing you done pretty much by yourself to yourself. Man up and take responsibility for your actions. Next time you're groped by…

That's simply not true. Even in Nazi Germany there were pockets of resistance and people like Sophie Scholl who gave their lives because of their ideals. I for one am doing my best to resist tyranny in all its forms. I certainly won't write a backdoor or vote for anyone in favor of Patriot Act-style tyranny.

>Even in Nazi Germany there were pockets of resistance and people like Sophie Scholl who gave their lives because of their ideals.

that's exactly the point. Once you really start to not being part of the evil, you live gets really impacted, to put it mildly.

>I for one am doing my best to resist tyranny in all its forms.

so, how do you refuse to take your shoes off and quietly wait for the TSA agent to complete groping a child ahead of you? You just don't understand what you're talking about. You still have Internet access, and it sounds like you aren't even arrested. You do your best "armchair warrior" style. Have respect and don't mention people who gave their lives in the same paragraph with "your best"

>I certainly won't write a backdoor or vote for anyone in favor of Patriot Act-style tyranny.

you may have already wrote it, yet you'd not be able to disclose any details about the NSA letter that instructed your so and to avoid committing the crime you must to continue saying "i didn't write a backdoor" :)

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