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Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

arstechnica.com

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Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#31

Post by judge2020 »

intricatedetail wrote: post #22
senko wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the judge said, that is a contract breach, which is handled by different lawsuit. In this lawsuit Apple argued it's theft, which is nonsense, and so the judge told them to go stuff it.

They should charge Apple for wasting courts time. Imagine someone had legitimate case but had to wait for their turn as Apple clogged the court. Utterly disgusting.

This is why court fees exist, there’s always a losing side so almost any case could be interpreted as the losing side “wasting the court’s time”.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#32

Post by franczesko »

thehappypm wrote: post #13

I find it hard to side with anyone but Apple here. Apple built not only the marketplace but the actual devices themselves. Apple is giving developers a marketplace of users with powerful processors, fast internet connections, and credit cards already connected. Installing an app is easier on a smartphone than any desktop. A big cut is well worth deserved, and the contract terms seem pretty fair. I can't see how Epic…

The problem is that Apple considers users of their hardware as their clients. In reality they're Epic's customers, not Apple's.

It would be as silly as asking website owners to pay Apple, just because of the fact, that visitors came in with Safari browser.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#33

Post by Dylan16807 »

kstrauser wrote: post #26
Animats wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument is like the railroad antitrust cases of a century ago. "The New York Central Railroad is giving shippers a marketplace of users with large freight terinals, fast locomotives, and railroad sidings already connected. A big cut is well worth deserved, and the contract terms seem pretty fair." (If you think Comcast is bad, read up on the history of railroad monopolies.)

One report shows Apple as having about 14% of the world smart phone market share in 2020, so I don't think that's a fair comparison. Apple's control over their App Store doesn't prevent Android users from using the Google Play Store, whereas the New York Central Railroad's ownership of freight terminals and rail lines prevents other people from building their own (because there are only so many places you can put a f…

New York Central Railroad's share of worldwide rail miles and freight terminals was probably comparable to 14% too.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#34

Post by cassteri »

joenathanone wrote: post #27
cassteri wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except Apple isn’t a country, it’s a company, so this analogy is useless.

That is the very purpose of an analogy, to compare two unalike things.

I understand what an analogy is, I also understand that not all analogies are valid, usually when the pretence is so heavily flawed that the analogy crumples. The analogy must be coherent, but a country and company are as alike as a fish sandwich and a turd. The usefulness of the analogy is stretched to the point of uselessness as it is here.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#35

Post by greycol »

kstrauser wrote: post #26
Animats wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument is like the railroad antitrust cases of a century ago. "The New York Central Railroad is giving shippers a marketplace of users with large freight terinals, fast locomotives, and railroad sidings already connected. A big cut is well worth deserved, and the contract terms seem pretty fair." (If you think Comcast is bad, read up on the history of railroad monopolies.)

One report shows Apple as having about 14% of the world smart phone market share in 2020, so I don't think that's a fair comparison. Apple's control over their App Store doesn't prevent Android users from using the Google Play Store, whereas the New York Central Railroad's ownership of freight terminals and rail lines prevents other people from building their own (because there are only so many places you can put a f…

Apple has 60% of revenue on phone marketplaces even if it only sell 14% of phones. Let alone that changing between phones has friction and can have significant costs.

Also by comparison consider the statement: "The New York Central Railroad's 'monopoly' of railway access between 14% of the worlds cities doesn't stop anyone traveling by road or doing business between any of the other cities in the world so clearly it' not a monopoly".

Having said that of course Apple is no where near as egregious a monopoly. However you'd have to agree any profit focused mobile app simply must (if it can) be available on iPhone and that does give Apple a monopoly position. It's only a question of if Apple is abusing that position.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#36

Post by NikolaeVarius »

medium_burrito wrote: post #21
jaywalk wrote: post #3

While I admire the creativity of Apple's legal team to attempt to frame this as theft, I'm glad it was dismissed outright because it's beyond absurd.

There should be a Nobel Prize for lawyers- awarded for the most ridiculous tortured or absurd legal arguments made with a straight face - maybe name it the Cochran prize in honor of the Chewbacca defense.

I nominate some of these Judges presiding over the election ballot lawsuits. Some amazing drypan court humor.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#38

Post by Osiris »

cassteri wrote: post #34
joenathanone wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the very purpose of an analogy, to compare two unalike things.

I understand what an analogy is, I also understand that not all analogies are valid, usually when the pretence is so heavily flawed that the analogy crumples. The analogy must be coherent, but a country and company are as alike as a fish sandwich and a turd. The usefulness of the analogy is stretched to the point of uselessness as it is here.

> a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

the dictionary definition of the word analogy does not include those stipulations that you stated.

Any explanation that compares two things meets the definition of analogy. I think you're being pedantic. You can disagree with the comparison, but that doesn't mean it can't be called an analogy.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#39

Post by ryanlol »

intricatedetail wrote: post #20
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where you come down on this issue should really be based on whether you think a marketplace cut of revenue with extremely onerous conditions that prevent even minor bypasses should be legal or not when distribution on said marketplace constitutes 50% of the consumer market in the sector This is a court case. Not a legislative session. Where you come down on it should be based on the law. I believe the law should be…

Apple has essentially unlimited resources to perverse the law and that's something that needs to be stopped, whether through tighter legislation or through courts making interpretation of the law in favour of consumers. We shouldn't be supporting a company trying to exploit loopholes to their advantage.

> Apple has essentially unlimited resources to perverse the law

As does Epic, the other party to this case.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#40

Post by thehappypm »

intricatedetail wrote: post #17
thehappypm wrote: post #13

I find it hard to side with anyone but Apple here. Apple built not only the marketplace but the actual devices themselves. Apple is giving developers a marketplace of users with powerful processors, fast internet connections, and credit cards already connected. Installing an app is easier on a smartphone than any desktop. A big cut is well worth deserved, and the contract terms seem pretty fair. I can't see how Epic…

You said you side with Apple, but why? Better analogy is that Apple is a country with a single party, no elections, that dictates who can make money and how much tax they pay. These ecosystems need regulation to enable multiple stores and open APIs.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to call Apple a country.. there's alternatives out there and nobody is forcing you to use an iPhone, which is vastly different from a country, where you are forced to abide by its laws and pay its taxes. It's almost an absurd analogy.

If I was to make an analogy, I might say Walmart is a better analogy. Walmart is the biggest store in town, but you do have alternatives and nobody is forcing you to shop there, even if it's kind of hard not to. Walmart does all the legwork of getting customers into the shop, then puts other companies' products on its shelves and sells them for a markup. Their markup? Pretty similar to Apple's fee, roughly 25%.

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