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The election of the doge

generalist.academy

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Re: The election of the doge

#81

Post by earthboundkid »

quag wrote: post #7
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #6

This is fascinating. One thing that would be awesome to try would be doing this with the House of Representatives in the US. Basically, one registered voter would be randomly chosen from each congressional district. They would be obligated to serve for the 2 year term and paid the current salary of a member of Congress ($174,000/year). They would never be part of the lottery again after 1 term. I think this could hav…

Choosing a random person from the population to be a representative is called sortition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

"Sortition" is a dumb name. Name it so what people already know what it is: "juries".

If you say "I think we should use sortition to decide voting districts" no one will know what the hell you're talking about. If you say "Voting districts should be approved by citizen juries" it is simple and clear. Avoid jargon that doesn't add any precision.

Re: The election of the doge

#82

Post by 0x445442 »

specialist wrote: post #77
0x445442 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't read that reference but I have read some stuff by Hans Hoppe and he raises some very interesting points on the subject. One of the more interesting points he brings up is that Democracy was not really looked on favorably by serious thinkers throughout history. He also asserts that because, it's implementation coincided with the great leaps forward in science, technology and industrialization, the champions…

Even Cornel West parrots Athenian era warnings about majoritarian tyranny, mob rule, etc. I have near religious faith in democracy. I'm so out of step. I don't know why. My enthusiasm for democracy originated in my workplace experiments. Ideas gleaned from Peter Drucker, Deming, and probably some others. I just needed an efficient, effective way to get my coworkers to step up and contribute their knowledge and expert…

Not sure about your down vote reference. I didn't down vote you.

Re: The election of the doge

#83

Post by earthboundkid »

zeveb wrote: post #72
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #6

This is fascinating. One thing that would be awesome to try would be doing this with the House of Representatives in the US. Basically, one registered voter would be randomly chosen from each congressional district. They would be obligated to serve for the 2 year term and paid the current salary of a member of Congress ($174,000/year). They would never be part of the lottery again after 1 term. I think this could hav…

I think it would be interesting to have three Houses: Senate, with individual senators appointed by the state legislatures; Representatives, with individuals elected by popular vote; and Citizens, selected by sortition. Legislation could originate in either the Senate or the House of Representatives, but would have to be ratified by the House of Citizens, unless their veto were overridden by super-majorities. The num…

There are a lot of potential roles for citizen juries, but adding a third house is just a solution looking for a problem.

A good arrangement would be:

- Elect 50 Senators nationally by proportional representation (2% party vote = 1 senate seat)

- The Senate works with parliamentary style vote of no confidence system instead of fixed term lengths (fixed term lengths have repeatedly been a disaster for the US). Let's say the maximum is 6 years, in keeping with tradition

- The Senate appoints the President and cabinet directly, instead of using the Electoral College first and then approving the Cabinet. Since the Senate is now national, it's essentially national popular vote for President.

- The House remains on a 2 year limit, but add more Reps (1 per 100K people is good) and do things like Instant Runoff Voting and multimember constituencies.

- For the House districts, have the Federal Election Commission draw up plans and…

- Have the plans approved by citizen juries. It's crazy to just send one random person to congress and expect them to do well, but it's not crazy to ask random 100 people from across the country to come together to give oversight to bureaucrats. We have 12 random people give oversight to criminal trials already. Juries are good at oversight.

- We could also use citizen juries for some Supreme Court stuff, but that might be harder because the cases end up being very technical at that level.

Re: The election of the doge

#84

Post by supportlocal4h »

specialist wrote: post #62

[Late to the party, sorry.] Anyone curious about modern sortition: Citizen juries are chosen by lottery. They review policy and make recommendations. Non binding, but impactful. https://healthydemocracy.org https://xraypod.com/show/democracy-nerd/exporting-oregon-sty... -- IMHO: Treat representation and policy making as distinct and separate activities. I'm very political. Over time, I've become increasingly disinter…

This is not new. In fact, it was assumed in the construction of the U.S. constitution.

Re: The election of the doge

#85

Post by a_imho »

zeveb wrote: post #70
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #48

While interesting, it's not an ideal system because it's still the elite picking one of their own.

Why is that a problem? I would rather have a doge from a good family, who has been exposed to international trade and great power politics from birth, than one who was sweeping out the stables three days ago. The non-elite are not inherently purer than the elite, and they are generally less well-educated. I am not certain how 'elite' has become a bad thing: shouldn't we all aspire to be among the elite? I thought tha…

It is only a problem if you think the common people with their common problems should be represented first and foremost including stable folks.

Also, there is a moral argument about equality and diversity. If you interpret democracy as in rule-by-the-people it is only fair that everyone has a chance to represent.

Re: The election of the doge

#86

Post by TheRealSteel »

flobosg wrote: post #9

In case someone else, like me, was expecting canine memes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge > A doge was an elected lord and chief of state in several Italian city-states, notably Venice and Genoa, during the medieval and renaissance periods.

The only reason I had some vague idea that it was something Italian is that I believe they mention a Doge in Assassin's Creed 2, if I'm remembering right.

Re: The election of the doge

#87

Post by aidenn0 »

tptacek wrote: post #25
aidenn0 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same is true of an election being decided by one vote.

It seems to me that the exact opposite thing is true of an election decided by one vote.

I mean the odds of the result of a federal election changing due to my vote are approximately zero.

Re: The election of the doge

#88

Post by pwdisswordfish4 »

1_player wrote: post #61
flobosg wrote: post #9

In case someone else, like me, was expecting canine memes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge > A doge was an elected lord and chief of state in several Italian city-states, notably Venice and Genoa, during the medieval and renaissance periods.

Mind the pronunciation guide: doge the meme isn't pronounced the same as doge the Venetian lord.

And how is doge the meme pronounced?

Re: The election of the doge

#89

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

specialist wrote: post #77
0x445442 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't read that reference but I have read some stuff by Hans Hoppe and he raises some very interesting points on the subject. One of the more interesting points he brings up is that Democracy was not really looked on favorably by serious thinkers throughout history. He also asserts that because, it's implementation coincided with the great leaps forward in science, technology and industrialization, the champions…

Even Cornel West parrots Athenian era warnings about majoritarian tyranny, mob rule, etc. I have near religious faith in democracy. I'm so out of step. I don't know why. My enthusiasm for democracy originated in my workplace experiments. Ideas gleaned from Peter Drucker, Deming, and probably some others. I just needed an efficient, effective way to get my coworkers to step up and contribute their knowledge and expert…

Democracy works when you have an educated and informed group trying to make rational choices in a limited context.

It falls apart as soon as you have huge disparities in privilege, wealth, and education in a nation state - manipulated by industrial narrative management techniques engineered by small privileged castes fighting hard to keep and enhance their caste privileges at the expense of everyone else.

They're not comparable situations. There is no sense in which democracy can ever be a solution in the latter, because it doesn't exist in the first place.

You need relative equality of power between participants and groups for democracy to be viable, and as soon as that disappears - it's gone.

Re: The election of the doge

#90

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

throwaway2245 wrote: post #42
EdwardDiego wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what an apolitical public service is for. America is rather an oddity where heads of federal agencies are political appointees whose terms are contingent on the ruling party.

So then I conclude that this version of sortition will shift the political power now held by experienced politicians onto experienced public servants (in addition to the power they already have). I am not sure if this would be worse, but it would be quite a different political power structure.

Yes, this is the critical flaw in sortition.

Consider how well jury service (doesn't) work. A highly trained class of influencers can game the system towards their preferred choice of outcome using arguments and techniques that are knowingly manipulative.

You'd soon end up with an oligarchy disguised as a civil service. Representatives would come and go, the civil service would remain and "guide" them.

The real power would continue to be lobby influence - and very likely explicit corruption of both civil servants and representatives.

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