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The election of the doge

generalist.academy

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Re: The election of the doge

#51

Post by C1sc0cat »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #34
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #6

This is fascinating. One thing that would be awesome to try would be doing this with the House of Representatives in the US. Basically, one registered voter would be randomly chosen from each congressional district. They would be obligated to serve for the 2 year term and paid the current salary of a member of Congress ($174,000/year). They would never be part of the lottery again after 1 term. I think this could hav…

It would greatly enhance the corrosive effects of lobbyists. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2018/01/18/five-reason... If you want to make Congress more effective, pay them and their staffers as much (or more) than they'd make in the private sector. https://sunlightfoundation.com/policy/documents/keeping_cong...

It would take the first two year term to learn how the system works.

Re: The election of the doge

#52

Post by C1sc0cat »

ALittleLight wrote: post #26
keeganpoppen wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

being groomed your whole life to take your father's place is totally different from being randomly forced to be a member of a legislative body, though... even if you are unremarkable, at least you'd learn enough to "know the language" from being in that world your whole life. maybe. also, you could at least argue that nobility have the most "skin in the game" when it comes to decisions about the realm. (not that that…

Could make it a pool of n lawyers, o professors, p doctors, q people who've made more than X million dollars, etc.

We need fewer lawyers in politics in my opinion

Re: The election of the doge

#53

Post by notahacker »

thechao wrote: post #22
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #6

This is fascinating. One thing that would be awesome to try would be doing this with the House of Representatives in the US. Basically, one registered voter would be randomly chosen from each congressional district. They would be obligated to serve for the 2 year term and paid the current salary of a member of Congress ($174,000/year). They would never be part of the lottery again after 1 term. I think this could hav…

A sibling mentioned this is called sortition. The main drawback another sibling mentioned is lack experience. I think a good combination is 'sortition & incumbency'. Elections occur in two phases: 1. If an incumbent wants to keep their seat, they keep their seat with a K% chance, say 50/50; and, 2. All remaining seats are chosen at random from the eligible (see below) that apply for the position. An additional tweak…

> The sortition mechanism is a robust anti-gerrymandering, anti-corruption, anti-just-about-everything-we-don't-like-in-government mechanism.

I'd argue that the worst aspect of the US political system is the fine margins between two fiercely partisan factions which random members of the public tend to strongly identify with. Making which faction with ~45% hardcore supporters [in swing states] has control a matter of dumb luck as opposed to whether their conduct impresses or appals the few people able to see merit in both political philosophies doesn't sound like an improvement.

Also, the incentive to be corrupt certainly isn't weakened by removing any incentive to present oneself as clean for future re-election from the equation.

Re: The election of the doge

#54

Post by pmontra »

karatinversion wrote: post #45
arminiusreturns wrote: post #39

I highly suggest reading up on the history of Venice, it's such an informative topic for me in studying history. For example, the War of the Legue of Cambrai is one of the most fascinating and illuminating wars that no one really knows about... a world war before the first world war. The origins of diplomacy (and espionage) there along with the banking and monetery systems alone are worth the study! The oath of the c…

The podcast "The Tides of History" had a bunch of episodes on early modern Italy in general and Venice in particular, which were really eye-opening. The other interesting fact about the Italian mercantile city-states is that many of them lasted an amazingly long time. The republics in Venice and Genoa, for example, were only extinguished in 1797 by Napoleon!

And if you go on vacation in the region around Venice (Veneto) you'll see so many historical buildings with engraved the San Marco's lion (the emblem of Venice) and flags that it feels like it ended in 1979. It also gives a feeling of the wealth of the Republic of Venice.

Re: The election of the doge

#55

Post by thaumasiotes »

tsimionescu wrote: post #31
tptacek wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that the exact opposite thing is true of an election decided by one vote.

They probably mean exactly one vote being the deciding vote for an election - 13567 votes for the winner, 13566 votes for the runner-up. Which would be the case where each and every voter's vote mattered.

> Which would be the case where each and every voter's vote mattered.

Why do the votes for the runner-up matter in that case?

Re: The election of the doge

#56

Post by thaumasiotes »

keeganpoppen wrote: post #17
magicsmoke wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The Great Council of Venice was a large legislative body made up of a relatively small number of noble families" So in Venice's case, it wasn't so much randomly selecting representatives from all its citizens as it was selecting from already wealthy and influential persons, on the assumption that they were somewhat competent if they could amass and manage their existing power.

being groomed your whole life to take your father's place is totally different from being randomly forced to be a member of a legislative body, though... even if you are unremarkable, at least you'd learn enough to "know the language" from being in that world your whole life. maybe. also, you could at least argue that nobility have the most "skin in the game" when it comes to decisions about the realm. (not that that…

> I think everyone makes out a lot better now than they did then

True, but how much of that is due to changes in the governmental system?

Re: The election of the doge

#57

Post by a_imho »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #48

While interesting, it's not an ideal system because it's still the elite picking one of their own.

This is the crux of the problem. Elites are going to represent the elites' problems and serve their incentives.

I'm in favor of sortition of choosing representatives on every level.

Re: The election of the doge

#58

Post by BerislavLopac »

Kosirich wrote: post #29
flobosg wrote: post #9

In case someone else, like me, was expecting canine memes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge > A doge was an elected lord and chief of state in several Italian city-states, notably Venice and Genoa, during the medieval and renaissance periods.

You beat me to it, I also thought the picture behind the link would be a Shiba with a bat punishing horny people.... and that's coming from someone who is from an area that historically use to be governed by a Doge

Zadar? ;)

Re: The election of the doge

#59

Post by codetrotter »

flobosg wrote: post #9

In case someone else, like me, was expecting canine memes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge > A doge was an elected lord and chief of state in several Italian city-states, notably Venice and Genoa, during the medieval and renaissance periods.

Same here, kind of. Or rather, I was reminded of the Shibe doggie memes when I read the title, but I expected that it would indeed be about the other kind of doge.

Re: The election of the doge

#60

Post by microtherion »

gverrilla wrote: post #35
vncecartersknee wrote: post #5

In the painting, that room is much smaller than it's depicted I think, or maybe people were a lot smaller in those days

church culture likes to make buildings (and fantastic ideas) gigantic and super powerful whilst individuals are thought of as small and insignificant and devious and vicious. of course this is not the way the church hierarchy regards itself, but this is the style they will impose for their "art" as a form of propaganda, to push their narratives.

I remember a tourist guide in Athens a few years ago claiming that you could see in the difference in proportions between the Parthenon (built by a democratic society) and the temple of Olympian Zeus (built by tyrants/emperors) that the former was meant to elevate you, while the latter was meant to make you feel insignificant.
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