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The election of the doge

generalist.academy

41–50 of 99 posts

Re: The election of the doge

#41
post #12

This is fascinating. One thing that would be awesome to try would be doing this with the House of Representatives in the US. Basically, one registered voter would be randomly chosen from each congressional district. They would be obligated to serve for the 2 year term and paid the current salary of a member of Congress ($174,000/year). They would never be part of the lottery again after 1 term. I think this could hav…

Sortition is a great way to make everybody in the country feel like they have absolutely no stake in or influence over the federal government, since the odds of any one person being chosen are infinitesimal --- lower than those of being struck by lightning.

I also dislike sortition, but I don't understand how this is a criticism of sortition. It applies equally to the current situation: any one person is unlikely to become a federal representative.

Re: The election of the doge

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this technique is that it takes most representatives several years to learn the mechanics of governing effectively - how to laws without unintentional loopholes, what the other relevant laws are, details of particular fields of interest (eg, space policy). The legislature has to have these details if it’s going to do anything at all. If the representatives don’t have that knowledge they’ll get it fro…

That's what an apolitical public service is for. America is rather an oddity where heads of federal agencies are political appointees whose terms are contingent on the ruling party.

So then I conclude that this version of sortition will shift the political power now held by experienced politicians onto experienced public servants (in addition to the power they already have).

I am not sure if this would be worse, but it would be quite a different political power structure.

Re: The election of the doge

#43
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sortition is a great way to make everybody in the country feel like they have absolutely no stake in or influence over the federal government, since the odds of any one person being chosen are infinitesimal --- lower than those of being struck by lightning.

I also dislike sortition, but I don't understand how this is a criticism of sortition. It applies equally to the current situation: any one person is unlikely to become a federal representative.

Under the current system, people who don't become representatives get to vote to choose those who do. Under sortition, they don't.

Re: The election of the doge

#44

I highly suggest reading up on the history of Venice, it's such an informative topic for me in studying history. For example, the War of the Legue of Cambrai is one of the most fascinating and illuminating wars that no one really knows about... a world war before the first world war. The origins of diplomacy (and espionage) there along with the banking and monetery systems alone are worth the study! The oath of the c…

More at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_League_of_Cambrai

Re: The election of the doge

#45

I highly suggest reading up on the history of Venice, it's such an informative topic for me in studying history. For example, the War of the Legue of Cambrai is one of the most fascinating and illuminating wars that no one really knows about... a world war before the first world war. The origins of diplomacy (and espionage) there along with the banking and monetery systems alone are worth the study! The oath of the c…

The podcast "The Tides of History" had a bunch of episodes on early modern Italy in general and Venice in particular, which were really eye-opening.

The other interesting fact about the Italian mercantile city-states is that many of them lasted an amazingly long time. The republics in Venice and Genoa, for example, were only extinguished in 1797 by Napoleon!

Re: The election of the doge

#46
post #38

Like a lot of commentors I think that sortition could be a useful part of the democratic process. However I think it's better as a component than the whole thing, which is also shown in the Doge election. It's worth remembering that voting is already only the last step of a process: 1 Candidates self-select 2 party selection panel (or primary election) 3 election In my opinion a good process would be: 1 voters form i…

Interesting proposal!

I think in practice it would devolve into "join my group and vote for me". You'd see people on Twitter trying to convince their followers to join their fan group. Once they got themselves a group of 100, they'd tell followers to join the group of a friend who was ideologically aligned.

You could also form the groups randomly. But assigning every person in the US to a 100-200 person group, arranging for them to meet in person, and letting them socialize enough to know who to pick could be logistically challenging, especially to do in a timely manner. Perhaps if you did it via the internet and used an app such as gather.town to make it feasible to get to know your group. Or perhaps if 100-200 person groups persisted between elections so the overhead of getting to know people was a one-time thing.

All these systems except sortition result in "rule by extraverts", which is arguably undesirable.

An approach that allows for introvert rulers: Let every person nominate whoever they want (including themselves?) Put all those names in a hat, then draw names randomly from the hat for the purpose of sortition. That way if I'm an introvert, and my introvert friend has insightful political opinions, I can nominate them. People would nominate their favorite celebrity a lot, but the flip side of that would be that if you voted for a celebrity whose name was already drawn, your vote is effectively wasted. So there's a bit of an incentive to nominate someone obscure that no one else will nominate. You would probably want to check and see if a person was actually willing to serve before nominating them. (I think it would be unwise to make service in this body mandatory the way jury duty is?)

That one reminds me of liquid democracy, which I believe Glen Weyl has criticized on the basis that it leads to polarization, though I'm not sure why.

Re: The election of the doge

#47
post #9

In case someone else, like me, was expecting canine memes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge > A doge was an elected lord and chief of state in several Italian city-states, notably Venice and Genoa, during the medieval and renaissance periods.

https://external-preview.redd.it/cBrUH39qpleJvs6tvBvuRlYSrSE...

Re: The election of the doge

#49
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine haggling over the range start or range size, and then picking your salary from a uniform distribution contained by that range. I cannot imagine anyone, ever, being happy with being told "hey you're great but you only rolled a 4 on your salary negotiation so you're $15k out of pocket.

Yeah, it's tough when that happens. But that is kind of how things go: part of the d20 system's charm is that it successfully approximates the absurd range and randomness inherent in ordinary life. Sometimes you get a company that gets offended at the prospect of negotiation - that's a 1, although if you get an offer rescinded like that it's probably good for you in the long run. Sometimes you throw out a ridiculous…

There's a difference between the appearance of randomness across multiple companies from employers and employees having different priorities (and levels of need, and mistakes, and luck) and actual randomness as a selection heuristic. Actual randomness as a policy gives the company the worst of both worlds: the roll of the dice is likely to often give a good recruit an offer they won't possibly accept but also ensures they can follow it up with a significantly higher offer to a worse employee. Lots of companies sacrifice more productive employees to keep salaries to a budget or consciously pay above market to improve their staff pool, but not many firms aim to both keep many promising recruits' salaries below an arbitrary figure and are willing to offer well above that figure to some obviously weaker candidates within the same time frame.

Re: The election of the doge

#50
post #4
post #3

It’s fascinating how random selection plays an essential role in the election. The final phase’s selection isn’t random, but many intermediary phases are. I think randomness is an underrated tool for introducing a sense of “fairness” to problems with strange power dynamics: where everyone is interested in a fair outcome, but the best outcome for any individual causes some harm to the group. Salary negotiation is one…

> Imagine haggling over the range start or range size, and then picking your salary from a uniform distribution contained by that range. I cannot imagine anyone, ever, being happy with being told "hey you're great but you only rolled a 4 on your salary negotiation so you're $15k out of pocket.

"hero point" :-)
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