Earlier quoted context omitted.
Given airplane safety statistics, you actually probably are more likely to die flying than not flying as long as you're in a plane.
> you actually probably are more likely to die flying than not flying as long as you're in a plane You're more likely to die from natural causes on a plane than from the plane crashing. Some quick googling: "287 fatalities on commercial aircraft in 2019." [1] "Deaths on board are far rarer: one for every 7.74 million passengers." [2] 4543 million passengers globally in 2019. [3] 4543 / 7.74 = 516. 516 > 287. And 2019…
American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max
181–190 of 205 posts
Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
Given airplane safety statistics, you actually probably are more likely to die flying than not flying as long as you're in a plane.
I guess it depends on exactly what point we consider the state of flying to have ended during a crash. The second the plane first makes contact with the ground, or after all of the fragments stop moving?
Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max
#183Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unless, of course, it was fixed and scrutinised by organisations which still have the same systemic flaws as the first time around. Until the sociotechnical systems that do the work change, they will keep overlooking problems and making similar mistakes, from a high-level perspective.
Do you mean the same regulatory organizations that have reduced the US airline fatality rate by 50x over the last 50 years to the point where it's now over 100x safer per mile to fly than to drive? I mean the FAA certainly has some flaws, but it's important to keep things in perspective.
As a layman, per-mile normalizing of the safety statistics feels wrong to me, given the speed and distance disparities between car and air travel (for many trips, the two modes aren't really substitutes).
IOW, 100x safer per mile doesn't look as good when contemplating a plane trip 200x longer than your daily commute.
I'm not sure what would be best, but either time-based or per-flight normalization seem like they would be an improvement. Or perhaps per-person (eg. x people fly per year, y have been in an accident).
Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max
#184Earlier quoted context omitted.
The difference with AF447 was that the aircraft at no point was defective, it was purely confusion on part of the flight crew and the issue with two pilots "in control" which the Captain absolutely should have dealt with.
It sure looks defective to me: It was controlled more by pressure than movement, using joysticks instead of the traditional huge yoke. When one person was screwing up, the other could not observe this. On a Boeing, each person would feel the other person's force because the controls are physically linked. The stall warning was designed for mild stalls, not severe stalls, and would turn off if the stall was really bad…
Of course the pitots shouldn't have frozen over, and of course the stall warnings were poorly thought out, and of course the lack of direct awareness by the other pilot of Bonin's inputs leads to misunderstanding of the situation, but there's one big problem in the AF447 case that has nothing to do with bugs in the A330.
Bonin (who flew the plane into the ocean) had no awareness of the Airbus's different flight modes or that the autopilot disconnect meant the plane was in Alternate Law, and as a result blissfully kept pulling back on the joystick thinking the computer would save him from ever stalling. The different flight modes are like the most basic part of operating an Airbus in an emergency, and the idea that any trained pilot wouldn't first consider which mode they're in is staggering.
Read the transcript. You have Bonin pulling back on the stick almost continuously without saying so, you have Robert advising him to descend, and Bonin replying that he was descending, when he never did. He let the controls go back to neutral, the plane was still ascending with a wildly high AOA for the conditions, and he quickly reverted to pulling back on the joystick.
Only less than a minute before impact, when the rapid descent and confusion lead to Robert advising Bonin to climb, does Bonin reveal the critical information, at which point both Robert and the Captain must have been shocked and horrified, both realizing they had to dive and also realizing they didn't have enough altitude and were going to crash:
02:13:40 (Robert) Climb... climb... climb... climb...
02:13:40 (Bonin) But I've had the stick back the whole time!
[At last, Bonin tells the others the crucial fact whose import he has so grievously failed to understand himself.]
02:13:42 (Captain) No, no, no… Don’t climb… no, no.
02:13:43 (Robert) Descend, then… Give me the controls… Give me the controls!
[Bonin yields the controls, and Robert finally puts the nose down. The plane begins to regain speed. But it is still descending at a precipitous angle. As they near 2000 feet, the aircraft's sensors detect the fast-approaching surface and trigger a new alarm. There is no time left to build up speed by pushing the plane's nose forward into a dive. At any rate, without warning his colleagues, Bonin once again takes back the controls and pulls his side stick all the way back.]
02:14:23 (Robert) Damn it, we’re going to crash… This can’t be happening!
02:14:25 (Bonin) But what’s happening?
02:14:27 (Captain) Ten degrees of pitch…
Exactly 1.4 seconds later, the cockpit voice recorder stops.
Transcript with notes: https://www.tailstrike.com/010609.htmlBonin may have passed training but he clearly wasn't competent to fly an Airbus. Air France crew resource management (communication between pilots) sucked, and a bunch of Airbus quirks led to the other pilots not discovering that Bonin was doing the wrong thing until it was too late. However, virtually any other pilot wouldn't have stalled the plane.
Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max
#185Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m not a pilot. I’ve just read the Wikipedia page on this crash and the final report. I don’t know what is common or expected and planned for but I take your characterization to mean that you think that it’s not a significant problem. There’s three pitot tubes. There were ADs issued over them icing over. Airbus replaced them multiple times with tubes from different vendors. In the final report, the first major issue…
It really highlights how terribly trained the pilots involved are - temporary inconsistency in measured speeds (there are still plenty of reasonable speed sources) in almost all other planes does not result in the plane crashing. Heck, my GPS can do groundspeed easily enough and you have basic pitch and power settings. How did they not notice their altitude was climbing as they pulled the plane up - they got into a C…
Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max
#186Earlier quoted context omitted.
Boeing has kind of a poor track record for software lately, from the Max to the SLS. Time will tell if this has resulted in real change.
Ah - I didn't say Boeing's ability to write and test that control software was particularly good (in fact, I think their current track record says exactly the opposite.) I just hate when non-domain experts make judgements about things being 'fundamentally flawed.' Insufficiently tested and documented? Sure. Bad UI/UX? Most definitely. Irredeemable 'because of aerodynamics' according to some private pilot that flew a…
But yes. MCAS was put in place due to concerns over aero. If that was just to avoid the need for extra pilot training then it should have been scrapped since new training will be required now anyway. But since great effort has been made to fix MCAS we can conclude that the root problem is aerodynamic.
Can aerodynamic issues be compensated for with software? Sure. I need to read up on the final hardware/software/instruction solution before passing Judgement.
Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max
#187To be clear, the FAA is set to lift their grounding order on November 18. https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing-737max/exclusive-faa-...
Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max
#188Earlier quoted context omitted.
The MD-11 is a passenger aircraft.
Right, but that's quite atypical, isn't it?
The MD-11 has been certified for air transport since it was introduced, was flying in revenue service until 2014, and as far as I know, that certification has never been revoked.
Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max
#189This is a clear case of corruption
Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max
#190Given the huge rise in shipping during the holiday season this criteria could be satisfied by the end of the year.