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Burnout can exacerbate work stress, further promoting a vicious circle

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Re: Burnout can exacerbate work stress, further promoting a vicious circle

#61

Post by hansvm »

motohagiography wrote: post #5

Clicked for me recently that working hard is like driving in first gear. Necessary initially, but if you don't shift up into higher gears, you're probably not doing it right, and not getting as far as fast as you probably should. If I'm tired, it's necessarily because I'm mismanaging my work and time, and that's a signal it's time to step back and figure out what's wrong. Some people are really good at that initial t…

Counterpoint: If driving a fancy car is your highest priority then most places in the developed world you can skimp in other places (family, time off, apartment size, etc) and save for a few years to pay cash for one if you haven't drawn a particularly short stick in life. A brand new GT-R costs something like 5-10yrs savings for a slightly-above-full-time pizza delivery driver who avoids most other luxuries.

Re: Burnout can exacerbate work stress, further promoting a vicious circle

#62

Post by outworlder »

WJW wrote: post #52
outworlder wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I'm tired, it's necessarily because I'm mismanaging my work and time Is it though? What if you are (always) on call? What if you get a message from your boss late evening asking for stuff for early morning? What if you have late night meetings or very early morning meetings (and what if both are present)? What if coworkers from other timezones are messaging you outside work hours (if you even have defined work h…

That's still mismanaging your work and time, but indirectly. Find a better job where your colleagues respect your personal time.

Fine. As long as we recognize that's a very privileged position. Many people on Hacker News have skillsets that are in high demand (across most geographical locations) so they have the luxury of moving on a whim.

This is not the case for many (most?) people.

Re: Burnout can exacerbate work stress, further promoting a vicious circle

#63

Post by tartoran »

WJW wrote: post #52
outworlder wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I'm tired, it's necessarily because I'm mismanaging my work and time Is it though? What if you are (always) on call? What if you get a message from your boss late evening asking for stuff for early morning? What if you have late night meetings or very early morning meetings (and what if both are present)? What if coworkers from other timezones are messaging you outside work hours (if you even have defined work h…

That's still mismanaging your work and time, but indirectly. Find a better job where your colleagues respect your personal time.

That's a stretch too far in my opinion. Sometimes we end up in situations that are unpleasant and the time it takes to change those situations is not necessarily short. As usual it's easier said than done. But it is doable, sure, I agree. But they still take a huge toll. Think about the hiring interview wall that's been going up recently. If stressed already one doesn't feel like jumping to leets code in preparation for an interview. Also there are other circumstances that make some of us not leave a job right away when we feel something is not right.

Re: Burnout can exacerbate work stress, further promoting a vicious circle

#64

Post by joemazerino »

outworlder wrote: post #18
motohagiography wrote: post #5

Clicked for me recently that working hard is like driving in first gear. Necessary initially, but if you don't shift up into higher gears, you're probably not doing it right, and not getting as far as fast as you probably should. If I'm tired, it's necessarily because I'm mismanaging my work and time, and that's a signal it's time to step back and figure out what's wrong. Some people are really good at that initial t…

> If I'm tired, it's necessarily because I'm mismanaging my work and time Is it though? What if you are (always) on call? What if you get a message from your boss late evening asking for stuff for early morning? What if you have late night meetings or very early morning meetings (and what if both are present)? What if coworkers from other timezones are messaging you outside work hours (if you even have defined work h…

Communication is important, too. Your teammates should have a rotating schedule and understanding of client deliveries so an exhausted person can rotate off for a fresh one.

Re: Burnout can exacerbate work stress, further promoting a vicious circle

#65

Post by outworlder »

29athrowaway wrote: post #12

If you are burned out watch the talk "Pushing through friction" by Daniel Na. That talk inspired me and saved my job.

That was an awesome recommendation.

However, I'd argue that that talk is more useful _before_ you start to burn out. Pushing through friction is akin to swimming upwards a waterfall if part of the friction comes from within.

Re: Burnout can exacerbate work stress, further promoting a vicious circle

#66

Post by tartoran »

echelon wrote: post #25

I just want a no-pay sabbatical. Three months, total reset of energy levels. We should all have that option. I would take a lot less money (-$50k or more) if I got to take a quarter off every year. Four day work weeks would be another compelling alternative. Two days a week are not enough time to get chores done. There's no time for relaxing. If I ever create a company, I'd love to offer these options.

Absolutely. We need to carve a new normal. I personally would be a lot more productive after a 3 months of rest. I asked my former employer if I could take some unpaid time off, and of course I was flexible on timing so that their impact was at a minimum. The answer was no.

Re: Burnout can exacerbate work stress, further promoting a vicious circle

#67

Post by tartoran »

nprz wrote: post #27
echelon wrote: post #25

I just want a no-pay sabbatical. Three months, total reset of energy levels. We should all have that option. I would take a lot less money (-$50k or more) if I got to take a quarter off every year. Four day work weeks would be another compelling alternative. Two days a week are not enough time to get chores done. There's no time for relaxing. If I ever create a company, I'd love to offer these options.

I was laid off near the tail end of a very stressful, deadline driven project and it actually came as a huge relief. Luckily I had money saved and took my time (about 3 months) looking for the next job. Was also given 2 months severance, so I didn't even end up losing much income. By end of my time off I was getting bored and happy to be working on something new. Highly recommended.

A layoff could come as a blessing sometimes, especially if you're not in the middle of other problems. As devs we're still privileged to be able to do this. For many a layoff comes as dreadful news.

Re: Burnout can exacerbate work stress, further promoting a vicious circle

#68

Post by pmiller2 »

nitrogen wrote: post #50
meaydinli wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, that is a good question. I haven't thought of it from that POV. Nothing is preventing me aside from my work-load, and the feeling that I am letting everybody down every second this project is further delayed.

I'm paraphrasing a story whose origin I can't remember at the moment, but basically if you have 6 hours to chop down a very large tree, you should spend 5 of those hours sharpening your axe.

That story is often attributed to Abraham Lincoln, IIRC. It may be apocryphal.

Re: Burnout can exacerbate work stress, further promoting a vicious circle

#69

Post by outworlder »

codecamper wrote: post #49

If you are reading this make sure you get a colonoscopy before 40, but also a 23andme to see if you have genetic susceptibility to colon cancer. If you have susceptibility, then don't smoke and a colonoscopy by 30 or smoke and a colonoscopy by 25. Don't drink a lot of sugary drinks either. Writing this because too many young people are getting colon cancer & it's a completely preventable cancer.

I upvoted this because, even though it's not on topic, it's an important recommendation.

That said, I don't see colon cancer listed in 23andme's website. Are you sure they screen for that?

Re: Burnout can exacerbate work stress, further promoting a vicious circle

#70

Post by jofer »

In my experience, most of burnout is being held responsible for things you don't have control over. That may not be true for everyone, but it's been consistently true for me.

As a result, the "work more efficiently" comments from management/etc are just incredibly unhelpful.

Most of the discussion so far seems to center on "work more efficiently", not "find a way to be supported". The latter is usually the only thing that will help, in my experience.

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